Joining the Wyrm's cause effects upon a Garou

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  • Alucardtes
    Member
    • Apr 2018
    • 31

    Joining the Wyrm's cause effects upon a Garou

    In tonight's game one of the players betrayed his pack & killed them with the help of Revenants and is now working for the Wyrm. He is in the Dark Umbra (where the crimes were committed) and nobody knows what has happened yet. He wants to remain a Glass Walker (a corrupt one) rather than converting to a Black Spiral Dancer. Is this possible and will he lose his Rank 2 status or would the act of having killed his former packmates allow him to retain it among his new allies? Is there a specific book that covers this situation? I am playing 20A WTA. Thanks.
  • Ragged Robin
    Member
    • Jul 2021
    • 1429

    #2
    I'd say he automatically gets a derangement, no it's or buts-the wyrm is mad ergo you are. I'd keep his rank 2 but have gaia spirits more wary of the group unless they're smart enough to figure it out. keep it subtle that something is wrong for future escalation.

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    • Black Fox
      Member
      • May 2014
      • 3606

      #3
      Evil Garou do not need to join the Black Spiral Dancers. There are any number of Camps that engage in deplorable activities among all the tribes that aren't just morally wrong, but treasonous in some capacity. But they remain members of their existing tribes. Some Shadow Lords worship Hakaken.

      If other Garou somehow discover his crimes and expose him, that PC would likely be subjected to the Punishment Rite of Gaia's Vengeful Teeth. It would be up to you as ST whether the PC's return alone is suspicious enough to warrant someone investigating.

      The PC would retain his Rank until such time someone is able to give reason for him to lose Renown and Rank, and the sept performs any necessary Rites to do so. There is not some omniscient being observing every single Garou and communicating their sins to others automatically.

      I disagree with Ragged Robin that the PC would get a derangement. That is certainly possible given the actual circumstances of the event. It could be a reasonable decision by the ST to tell the PC he has a Derangement now. But it could also not be. I don't believe that being evil means you get an automatic Derangement.

      However, it is totally possible that should the Black Spiral Dancers learn what the PC has done, they may seek to recruit him and use very active measures to leave him no chance but to join the tribe and walk the spiral.

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      • Shadeprowler
        Member
        • Feb 2018
        • 641

        #4
        Originally posted by Alucardtes View Post
        betrayed his pack & killed them with the help of Revenants.
        Let's unpack this, shall we?
        What kind of Ravenants?
        One of the Tzimisce Families (Bratovitch, Grimaldi , Obertus, Zantosa)? The Bratovitches are depraved brutes, the Zantosa are temptaton incarnate amd the Obertus family is alien enough... only maybe the Grimaldi are "normal" I'm asking this, because, derangement is an option; Cthulhu​-sytle, facing how and what the Humans could become potentially coul crush some one's mind or spirit or both - especially if he spent time with them...
        Other options are:
        D'habi: An ancient revenant family owned by the Baali bloodline - no comment here, demon worshippers
        Enrathi: A bloodline associated with the True Black Hand, infamous for abducting and training chatterlings (Chatterlings were mortal humans, abducted as children by the True Black Hand to be trained as servants and ghouls until they are deemed worthy of being Embraced.)
        Kairouan Brotherhood: A family created through experiments of Assamite Sorcerers
        Katayama: The youngest of the revenant families. the creation of Dr. Douglas Netchurch and his childe Dr. Nancy Reage.
        Keskinen: A revenant family that serves the ancient Malkavian Louhi.
        Marijava: A bloodline associated with the True Black Hand. While they are trained as thieves and assassins, their primary function is as spies.
        Rafastio: They are witches, sorcerers, and seers loosely affiliated with the True Black Hand. They primarily act as the sect's liaisons to the Verbena tradition. Most of the members study Magick and a few are actual Awakened mages.
        Servants of Anushin-Rawan: Debased fisher-folk who served an eccentric Ventrue in early modern Greece.
        Rosselini: The Rosselini family were once mortal necromancers that crossed paths with the Giovanni. Being "persuaded" to become a part of the family, the Rosselinis underwent an unknown necromantic ritual to be transformed into Revenants. - now you mentioned the Dark Umbra... since they are necromancers, well... yepp

        Originally posted by Alucardtes View Post
        is now working for the Wyrm.
        What this actually means to him? Or in your game? Especially if he not a BSD, how exactly he works for the wyrm?
        This is an important question I guess e because could determine lot of things
        A powerfull dark spirit is a laison and the Wyrm (or one of the Wyrms, anyway) have special plans with that Garou?
        Or a clever Bane (or demon) just tricked the young wolf, yeah, I AM THE WYRM!!! Fear me, serve me... or just, you know, work with me, and I will grant you riches and bitches and power and the whole enchilada, sign here
        Is he a Chosen or a Fool?

        Originally posted by Alucardtes View Post
        He is in the Dark Umbra (where the crimes were committed) and nobody knows what has happened yet..
        How he managed to cross to the Realm of Death? The Ravenants helped them? Protal? Relick? Fetish? Someone helped them...?
        From the Mokolé Innocents to the wandering spies of the Yin Aspected Yama Kings, anything could seen this to make his life misrable...
        But on basic level if no one knows whats happened, his main concern would be how to get back, if he is a youngster and his firsz trip there... witch actually could help to cover his crimes, Dead man tell no tale (well, they are quite chatty, but...) Seeking a Strider to gide him back or finding ghostly allies to seek out one of the Childrens of Anubis and sell the story , whats happened could cover up the whole thing, and a little Taint here and there are not that noticable, especially in the City; Glasswalker you said, so he easly could be "normal" and untill he not get cocky and draws attention...
        But this takes us back to question no. 2: How actually he works for the Wyrm?

        These three questions interwines I think to give your answer
        But he will not becomes BSD on the spot, nor his Patron will turn away (Grandfather Tunder even hands out gifts to mask the Taint... and Cockroach is the ultimate survivor. Cockroach sees Wyrm is at the moment the winning side, maybe not switched side yet, but always keeps that door open, if needed, and if thats happen, the likes of your player will be handy to have around) from him.
        Tons of Garou have skeletons in their closet...
        Last edited by Shadeprowler; 03-24-2023, 04:43 AM.

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        • Ana Mizuki
          Member
          • Nov 2013
          • 2308

          #5
          I feel the biggest thing to unpack here would be; In what way did this character join the Wyrm? Because maneaters mostly start out as desperate and the eaters of the death start trying to seek knowledge.

          So did this GW out and out decide he wanted to serve the Wyrm? If so, what was his reason?

          If he just decided to take Wyrmy actions, what were those?

          If the answer is the former, then I'd say he cannot keep his GW status as he has officially declared to serve the Wyrm. Choice like that has deep spiritual implications.

          If, on the other hand, he simply took corrupted actions, he can stay a GW.


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          • voidshaper
            Member
            • Jun 2022
            • 444

            #6
            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
            The PC would retain his Rank until such time someone is able to give reason for him to lose Renown and Rank, and the sept performs any necessary Rites to do so. There is not some omniscient being observing every single Garou and communicating their sins to others automatically.
            Hm, how about the pack totem? Betrayal is one thing, but if the Garou actively renounced their totem and declared for the Wyrm, this might have an impact on their renown and rank. Especially in their interactions with formerly aligned spirits.

            In general though, I agree that traitors can uphold their status as long as they are not found out. Ana Mizuki asks the relevant questions, imo.



            Custom Sorcery: For Ananasi | Mortal Hekau | Dust Path (Necromancy) | Ars Notoria (Thauma)

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            • Asmodai
              Member
              • Nov 2013
              • 2952

              #7
              Yeah, I wanted to ask about the Totem, that's a pretty damn big witness and one that will not want to have anything to do with a character like this. If it can get back to the Sept, the jig is up. Now if the totem can be controlled or convinced to support the character, this can be addressed.

              Ana Mizuki does make the right questions. "Serving the Wyrm" doesn't mean anything in practical terms. What kind of goals, beliefs and causes is this character behind and what do they want to do and how are they serving The Wyrm are key questions in understanding how they could infiltrate the Tribe and hide who or what they are.


              What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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              • Alucardtes
                Member
                • Apr 2018
                • 31

                #8
                So he and the pack were fighting a powerful bane and he plays his character as a “me first” and everything and everyone else second kind of manner. He is a perfectionist and decided that because he didn’t think that they could beat him (that was his idea of perfection in this case) that he would accept the bane’s offer to join it and achieve success by killing his pack mates thus seeing atoning for his failure to kill the bane (in his twisted perception). The bane offered him the opportunity to join up because it knows that the character has connections in the NYC Glass Walker community and would be invaluable to its plans. Knowing my player, he’s probably going the route of I work for the highest bidder. Makes sense given that this bane is one of corruption. The Revenants were the zombie variety that are in the 20A WW book. Bad player rolls is what did them in. He got into the Dark Umbra with help from a Uktena who was in his pack. The bane was residing here and they were actually tracking it down because it had broken free from a prison that the Uktena failed to protect. As for the pack totem, it has abandoned him fully. Not sure about the tribe totem though.

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                • Ana Mizuki
                  Member
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 2308

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Alucardtes View Post
                  So he and the pack were fighting a powerful bane and he plays his character as a “me first” and everything and everyone else second kind of manner. He is a perfectionist and decided that because he didn’t think that they could beat him (that was his idea of perfection in this case) that he would accept the bane’s offer to join it and achieve success by killing his pack mates thus seeing atoning for his failure to kill the bane (in his twisted perception). The bane offered him the opportunity to join up because it knows that the character has connections in the NYC Glass Walker community and would be invaluable to its plans. Knowing my player, he’s probably going the route of I work for the highest bidder. Makes sense given that this bane is one of corruption. The Revenants were the zombie variety that are in the 20A WW book. Bad player rolls is what did them in. He got into the Dark Umbra with help from a Uktena who was in his pack. The bane was residing here and they were actually tracking it down because it had broken free from a prison that the Uktena failed to protect. As for the pack totem, it has abandoned him fully. Not sure about the tribe totem though.
                  So in essence; The character has made it known to Banes AND his pack totem that he now serves the Wyrm and murdered his pack FOR the bane.

                  Yeah, he is not going to stay a GW. His pack totem is going to inform his sept of his actions at least. Since one of his packmates was an Uktena, their tribemates could try to call their spirit as a witness.

                  But there is one major issue above all; HOW does he plan to get out of the Dark Umbra if the packmate that took him there is dead?


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                  • Alucardtes
                    Member
                    • Apr 2018
                    • 31

                    #10
                    I guess I need to ask him if he’s truly working for the bane or if he’s trying to use it too. And yes he now needs to find his way out of the Dark Umbra.

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                    • Ana Mizuki
                      Member
                      • Nov 2013
                      • 2308

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Alucardtes View Post
                      I guess I need to ask him if he’s truly working for the bane or if he’s trying to use it too. And yes he now needs to find his way out of the Dark Umbra.

                      You should also ask him if he is prepared to have the whole of the Nation declare him an enemy.

                      Regardless if he is using the bane or not, killing your packmates for your own ego does mean he is very much on the chopping block still. Even Shadow Lords, who do some dark things for power and Gaia, do not kill their bonded packmates for their own gain only. If they MUST take out a packmate, they will usually direct them to an unwinnable fight.


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                      • Alucardtes
                        Member
                        • Apr 2018
                        • 31

                        #12
                        So it would be in his best interest to request help from the bane in stopping the pack totem from ratting him out? I’m sure it’s a big price to be paid.

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                        • Ana Mizuki
                          Member
                          • Nov 2013
                          • 2308

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Alucardtes View Post
                          So it would be in his best interest to request help from the bane in stopping the pack totem from ratting him out? I’m sure it’s a big price to be paid.
                          Very much so.


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                          • Arcanus
                            Member
                            • Feb 2023
                            • 148

                            #14
                            As others have said it’s very much down to his next steps and what you want campaign wise, so the Bane is powerful if it had to be bound by the Uktena (rather than just destroying it) and it’s capable of moving from the middle umbra to dark umbra.

                            Guessing that if the Pack were all rank 2 it’s a smaller Pack Totem a Jaggling and despite it travelling into the Dark Umbra with the pack it may not be able to escape (unless it’s a Child of Karnak or Owl), so the Bane might be able to hunt the pack totem down and kill it.

                            in terms of his Wyrm corruption as this is a Corruption Bane has he just pledged allegiance to save his skin or entered a pact, if it’s the latter then that’s the start of his appearing on ‘Sense Wyrm’ and the Gaian spirit grapevine plus the Bane will probably require a bigger pact to get him out of the Dark Umbra and stop the totem.

                            Really depends on what you want to do next, but unless he joins the BSDs his days are numbered, sooner or later someone like the Uktena or GW are going to get suspicious or he’s going to ping someone’s Wyrm radar.

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                            • Black Fox
                              Member
                              • May 2014
                              • 3606

                              #15
                              Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                              Hm, how about the pack totem? Betrayal is one thing, but if the Garou actively renounced their totem and declared for the Wyrm, this might have an impact on their renown and rank. Especially in their interactions with formerly aligned spirits.
                              The pack totem is not omniscient or always present either. If it is an actual eyewitness to what happened, then yes that information can get out to others, and the sept will eventually render justice. So if a corrupt Garou is tells its pack totem that it has joined the Wyrm, that a pack member before he dies somehow communicates to the pack totem what has happened even though the totem is not present, or does his betrayal in front of the totem and allows it to flee, then this can certainly happen.

                              But we cannot assume that the pack totem will know. I can imagine lots of scenarios where the pack totem is just as ignorant as anyone else.

                              Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                              In general though, I agree that traitors can uphold their status as long as they are not found out. Ana Mizuki asks the relevant questions, imo.
                              Agreed.

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