BotW20th, Black Spiral Topic

[Lyrics Of War]

Couple of changes I've noticed. The camps no longer appear to be camps, and are just types of Spirals? Sounds fairly awesome but I miss the look of the Cthuili.

Next thing: Spirals no longer need to be mutants? Looking at the kinfolk it looks like they dont have to be mutated from the start by the bale fire. I LOVE the idea of saner BSDs! This whole "integration with society" motif makes me pretty happy. It exemplifies that Spirals were originally better at subterfuge then just strait shock troops for the wyrm, which is how previous books posed them as. It makes them appear as a more real threat rather then every day cannon fodder for players.

I know spirals were supposed to be dangerous before, but now they're threatening and cunning on a level similar to what people expect from vampires.

[The Cat Came Back]

What I got from reading it is that dancing the spiral mutates you all on its own - a perfectly "normal" Garou can be sent down the Spiral, and they will come back "weird" - beyond just having lost their minds, that is. The spiritual corruption is reflected in physical form somehow - apparently either only apparent, or mostly apparent in crinos.

What i really like is that the Spirals don't care - they've gone full Honey badger. They've won; all they have to do now is wait. They don't kill Garou because of a holy crusade for the Wyrm; they kill Garou becuase htey hate Garou and Garou keep trying to kill them.

[Lyrics Of War]

I also loved the updated fall. Botw 2nd gave us details of the tribes history, this gives us a more elaborate fall itself. Their hated of the other garou makes a lot more sense considering they all essentially got dicked trying to do the right thing.

Modern Spirals appeal to me in the same way that gangrel vampires do now. They own the world and it's becoming far more evident. I would prefer a bigger example of physical mutations amongst spirals but eh, I'll take what I can get. Question on that though: Do these mutations chiefly manifest in Crinos or is it evident in Homid form like a metis? My theory is no, from all the street walking they apparently do.

[Furrly]

Where may I find information ?

[Lyrics Of War]

On the main kickstarter page. Lemme find it... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ok-of-the-wyrm
right below the first images of actual pages theres a link saying "don't take our word for it." Click the link and viola!

[Furrly]

Thank you so much

[Lyrics Of War]

Hey no problem. Spirals look like fun to play now. Nvm the dark nature of it.

[glamourweaver]

Do BSDs have any way to cloak themselves against "Sense Wyrm"? Or would including that just be too crippling of one of the most basic powers in the game (sense storytellers can just say "sorry i didn't tell you, she was using [x]" whenever they want if a canon counter-gift existed)...

Hmmmm... maybe a high level rite that requires bathing in the blood of a Gaian werewolf, covering their scent for either a lunar cycle, or until they use ANY wyrmish gift or rite?

[Ana Mizuki]

So, the new BSDs. This section skipped an edition, and boy howdy does it show. Remade Litany and remade philosophy entirely. Remade camps, basically they wrote the tribe pretty much again.

So, to any W20 writer present who didn't want BSDs to be played? Congrats, at least for me the reason to play disappeared. While I liked the wyrmish Crusaders and the dark mirror aspect, and will possibly use it still, I do like that they assume the Apocalypse happened and this is their world. It changed the whole dynamic of the tribe, no longer breeding for the Great Battle. No, now it's time to chillax and do what ever they want.

That alone makes them far more creepy and dangerous. There is no greater goal, no ultimate plan. Any BSD you encounter will be defending his livelihood more than for some greater purpose.

I'm not sure about the Crinos-only deformities, I like deformities being visible in all forms. But, that's my own taste and nothing more.

Other than that, let's see what I wanted to have in this book and what it has. NPC examples? Yes. IC Litany? Yess. List of different Hives? Nice!

All in all, I dig this. It might ruin my image of the tribe, but I can appericate the change because it fits well.

[glamourweaver]

As "The Ancients" don't fit into Triat cosmology - I kind of can't help but wonder if they are Earthbound Demons.

[Lyrics Of War]

I can definitely see the influence of the new writers in the game, and its refreshing! You can see it with the introduction of white howler gifts, and this new, revised BSDs are a breath of fresh air that they needed. I know they're monsters, but I think one could make a fairly compelling game out of what we have here, especially with Pentex trying to replace them? Pentex better watch itself, or it'll find enemies not only from without but within. 14 werewolf tribes would not be fun.

@glamour: I don't think they do. I might be wrong as I haven't checked both gift lists from w20 along with these, buuuuut they also have access to gaian gifts, and there isn't any reason to suggest the st couldnt create a gift for the spirals to use. These new spirals feel vastly more intelligent then the previous iteration.

That said, I feel one shouldn't do that. They're so thoroughly bathed in Wyrm taint that being able to mask it should be nigh impossible. While it would add to the fear factor, not being able to track them via that particular gift, I feel it would make them too close to the Bale Hounds of Forsaken (whom I also love! Viruk-Ur!)

[glamourweaver]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize it shouldn't be part of the BSD standard power bag, and makes a better unique plot hook for a specific story (there are many many things that are amazing in individual campaigns that wouldn't work in published canon where it'd be effectively standardized).

[Furrly]

Notes:
1) Many black spiral gifts need rework , actually many gifts need rework or house ruling, even in the core of W20.
2) Balefire soaked only by one rank 1 gift ? What about luna's armor and similar gifts ?
3)Signature Wyrm characters lack stats and special abilities.

[The Cat Came Back]

As "The Ancients" don't fit into Triat cosmology - I kind of can't help but wonder if they are Earthbound Demons.

From the description, they do actually... Inasmuch as elemental spirits have always been outside the triat. A fire elemental doesn't care about Gaia, about the Wyrm or the Wyld, It just wants to burn things forever. Individual spirits might be corrupted by the triat in some way - or in the case of the Wyrm, bane-things that are "functionally" elementals may arise... but to the perspective of the elemental courts, they've always existed, and they will always exist, and the affairs of the rest of the universe are of no real matter to them.

And hte Ancients are, from what I can read, just very old, powerful, and likely insane Elemental spirits who are aligning with spirals not because of any ideological sympathy... but simply because the Spirals are showing up and giving them veneration. They don't necessarily conform to the "classic elements" - Earth / Air / Fire / Water... but they are elementals in that they are representations of primal - and indifferent - forces of nature.

other examples of things that could be considered "Ancients" are Cataclysm (Caerns: Places of Power) and the illganwasi baKalahari (the... thing in the Kalahari mentioned in Guide to the Changing Breeds and Apocalypse).

Since this is a werewolf game,the proper anser is that "Earthbound demons" are Ancients

[Lyrics Of War]

@Furrly- I like a lot of the spiral specific gifts, but a good amount of them are very situational. Things I would like to see: Stat examples of what 'rite of the flayed god' would give you. If I flay a shark and wear it what stat bonus' do I receive? Beyond consistently smelling like sushi.