BotW20th, Black Spiral Topic

[Furrly]

@Furrly- I like a lot of the spiral specific gifts, but a good amount of them are very situational. Things I would like to see: Stat examples of what 'rite of the flayed god' would give you. If I flay a shark and wear it what stat bonus' do I receive? Beyond consistently smelling like sushi.

I do agree that Black Spirals became much better and gained greater horror mood , many gifts are indeed great , there are just some who should have been a bit better , maybe alot better in some cases. By better I don't mean stronger , just more inside the description rather than poor mechanics.

[glamourweaver]

Notes:
1) Many black spiral gifts need rework , actually many gifts need rework or house ruling, even in the core of W20.

I wonder what your standard here is, because the W20 gifts are the best worked gift list WtA's ever gotten.

Don't get me wrong, there are things I would tweak (the level 5 Wendigo weather gift is FAR too powerful and broad, especially when you compare it to other weather influencing powers), but overall, I'm not sure what you'd be looking for.

[Lyrics Of War]

Here's a question: what spiral lore does this new version of spirals retcon? So far the camps yes? I see a lot of the history as being ok with the current model, but I don't want to make assumptions.

[Nazfool]

I was thrilled to see that Zhyzhak is still around. In high school, I had a bizarre crush on the character and I’m still not sure what that says about me. O_o

[Ana Mizuki]

Here's a question: what spiral lore does this new version of spirals retcon? So far the camps yes? I see a lot of the history as being ok with the current model, but I don't want to make assumptions.

It retcons a big part of what made the tribe in the 2nd ed. book. In there, Dancers were clearly monsters, yes, but they also were preparing for the apocalypse with their excess breeding and wanted to free the Wyrm from the Weaver's webs. Not all, but some. It gave the tribe a dark mirror aspect and at least for me, made you wonder if the garou were not fighting the right foe after all (the Weaver). That isn't the case in the new text at all.

Aside from the camps, the litany has been very roughly remade. This ( http://www.wyrmfoe.com/1259/the-dark-litany/ ) is the original version. I think the new Dark Litany is based less on gathering troops for the Wyrm and more on the inevitable fact that garou will fall to the Wyrm. Slay those who will not join you VS The Spiral waits Those with Open Eyes, for example. Technically the same tenet, but veeery different view.

[Furrly]

There should also be systemsand lore about the circles of the Labyrinth , like the pretanic keys depicted in the Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth (one of the best books I have ever read) and the banes that lurk there. Probably an example story should be added on how to roleplay the circles of the labyrinth and a specification on what circle a rank is obtained ? I mean the first circle is for rank 1 , the second for rank 2 etc etc ? And what happens above the 5th Circle ? The black Spiral starts the downward spiral to become an incarna ? There are ranks above the 5th or even the 6th ? Also as somoene else mentioned when you become a spiral you gain some markings , the re should be list on that specific element.

[Nazfool]

For the sake of conversation, a small list of things that I really appreciated:

• Draugr. These fill my head with horrible ideas.
• Mockery Breeds.
• The Chulorviah survived Blood-Timed Tides!
• I really liked the little extra flavor-text given to devilwhips.
• Space Accountant. Buhahahaha! *wipes tears* Oh, EVE…

[Furrly]

I wonder what your standard here is, because the W20 gifts are the best worked gift list WtA's ever gotten.

Don't get me wrong, there are things I would tweak (the level 5 Wendigo weather gift is FAR too powerful and broad, especially when you compare it to other weather influencing powers), but overall, I'm not sure what you'd be looking for.

Level 5 weather gift ? I thought it was level 4.

I competely agree with you that the W20 gift list is THE AWESOMEST LIST EVER !! BUT !!
Some low level gifts are too strong and some high level gifts are too weak.

For instance Strength Without Limit rank 5 Black Spiral Ahroun , exchanges 1 aggravated wound for 1 in all attributes and +2 in all damage rolls, this looks similar to the old good Avatar of Wyrm but is weaker and exchanges 1 aggravated wound as well. while avatar of wyrm also gives +1 bashing wound and aggravate unsoakable. If the black Spiral can exchange more health levels for extra attributes then this is a Gift under discussion.

Also the gift Open Wound , is a rank 4 gift but not that much useful, it spends gnosis and reduce a werewolf's combat capabilities.
Clap of thunder Rank 2 Shadow lord has also weak system , it needs a Gnosis vs willpower resist roll , because it is a zero effect gift that also consumes Gnosis.

Τhere are many numerous examples.

[Possessed]

It retcons a big part of what made the tribe in the 2nd ed. book. In there, Dancers were clearly monsters, yes, but they also were preparing for the apocalypse with their excess breeding and wanted to free the Wyrm from the Weaver's webs. Not all, but some. It gave the tribe a dark mirror aspect and at least for me, made you wonder if the garou were not fighting the right foe after all (the Weaver). That isn't the case in the new text at all.

The new text makes them more black and white? (haven't had time to read it yet, unfortunately). That is kinda sad, I always loved the dark grey tones they were painted in. Well I still can't wait to have the new book sad as it may be if they have been vilified from what they were. They will still remain my favourite Tribe.

[Ana Mizuki]

The new text makes them more black and white? (haven't had time to read it yet, unfortunately). That is kinda sad, I always loved the dark grey tones they were painted in. Well I still can't wait to have the new book sad as it may be if they have been vilified from what they were. They will still remain my favourite Tribe.

I don't think they are less gray, but they just aren't the dark crusaders anymore. However, in turn we actually get a lot of IC stuff for them and even a section talking about playing them (mostly the usual song and dance, however). And I think you can still play them as they once were. Might be that they just now started this new way of living.

I think the way they act does kind of imply something very interesting. BSDs are the tribe of the Wyrm, they know stuff from the Wyrm that no other garou can. And what do they do? They chill back and just live. You'd think, if there was a great battle to be had for the Apocalypse, they'd prepare for it. This to me means that maybe the apocalypse isn't going to happen, there won't be this big boom battle. Just life continuing on, whether ill or good.

In the text, its said that BSDs use this fact tomake Gaian garou lose hope, which I think works well.

[Lyrics Of War]

I think the mentality of the Prince's of Ruin is a current modern trend. From the reading it looks like they took to that soon as they hit the over world. Now that they dont necessarily need to bathe in horrific bale fire and mutate into "hills have eyes werewolves" they can live a different way of life. I LOVE it. I also wouldn't say they're black and white now, more I'd say they have a lot more flavor.

Before it was just "pillage and rape IN NOMINE VERMIIS!!!!" Now its... "Hey... we do what we want... oh the Gaian's? Yeah they can join us or we'll split their skulls. They dicked US after all!"

The new dark powers they have are giving me all manner of ideas. I believe Rite of the Flayed God is new yes? Even made a Spiral character focused on occult lore specifically around that rite. I dunno, I get that a lot of you are used to the old style, and I rather liked what I read in 2nd edition book of the wyrm, but this new stuff rapid fires my imagination.

Still going to miss the Cluithi... but hey, maybe they're a pack eh?

[rx781a]

hey guys,

I cant seam to get the google link to work. Do any of you guys have a downloadable copy that you can post on the forums?

[Lyrics Of War]

Can you not download it there? I think there's an option that says you can download it if it won't work... Are you using a tablet or phone?

[rx781a]

i figured it out. was trying to get it working at work. thanks guys

[Nazfool]

Between Donald Gauntley and the ‘Ancients,’ do you think they’re subtly suggesting some crossover potential?