BotW20th, Black Spiral Topic

[Nazfool]

Speaking of Baneklaives, have any STs (or players?) used them in their games? Thematically, did they add anything that a klaive or grand klaive wouldn’t? Across all the weapon’s incarnations, I get the impression it’s a klaive with Wyrm poison. Is that an accurate perception?

[Lyrics Of War]

Appears to be the case. Maybe a little weaker then an actual grand klaive due in part to shoddy construction, but the wyrm taint adds that poisonous effect to it.

[Erinys]

What were the Camps in previous editions? Cluithi, Silver Spirals, who else?


Another retcon, apparently, is that shapeshifters who fall to the Wyrm absolutely cannot be redeemed or cleansed, and have no free will to change their minds. In Umbra Revised Erebus could cleanse Black Spiral Dancers. I'm disappointed that they don't retain free will, to me that makes them less interesting and even in a way less evil.

[Lyrics Of War]

Hm Cluithi, the swamp 'deliverance' types... Can't remember the rest on hand... -quick search- Ok lets try this a bit more formally

Cluithi- operate in the back moors of Scotland, trying to appear as their white howler ancestors but in that wyrmish way. Consider themselves to be the upper tier of the Tribe. I'd assume they're all pure breed 5 white howler throwbacks.

The Genetic Irregulars- Seriously inbred, low genetic pool spirals, who will take any ronin, rogue bone gnawer or other garou into their fold. Anyone caught in their territory gets used as brutally abused breeding stock.

Generation Hex- Camp of spirals dedicated to keeping an eye on their degenerate kinfolk. Making sure they live or something. Even infiltrating packs into their social circles.

The Consultants- Basically company wolves. Wholly dedicated to the companies and subsidiaries, they put that above the wyrm.


Looking at that list the new camps are waaaaay better. The only thing I'll be missing are the Cluithi, whom I imagine operate more as a pack or sept and less as a camp. I mean, how many pure blood throwbacks could they produce in modern nights? Not enough to make a full on camp I'd wager.

[Ana Mizuki]

Another retcon, apparently, is that shapeshifters who fall to the Wyrm absolutely cannot be redeemed or cleansed, and have no free will to change their minds. In Umbra Revised Erebus could cleanse Black Spiral Dancers. I'm disappointed that they don't retain free will, to me that makes them less interesting and even in a way less evil.

We don't know yet if Erebus can't cleanse BSDs, we just know it seems like that. It is possible that a BSD dragged to Erebus can still be cleansed. At least I hope so, because taking that plot chance away would be sad. It could also be just for fera who get the mind control.

Also, the BSD section (in the 'playing the tribe' section) HAS a suggestion for the ST about a player wanting to play a bsd who wants to be redeemed.

[Lyrics Of War]

They have free will to an extent. They can do what they want, so long as it isn't directly in opposition of the wyrm. Doesn't make them like the weavers drones. Just that when it comes to shutting down a toxic waste pollution zone they would have to struggle internally to accomplish it. Like a difficulty 9 roll vs willpower or something.

As for erebus, I'm pretty certain it can still clense... Wasn't it mentioned in w20 core?

[Ana Mizuki]

They have free will to an extent. They can do what they want, so long as it isn't directly in opposition of the wyrm. Doesn't make them like the weavers drones. Just that when it comes to shutting down a toxic waste pollution zone they would have to struggle internally to accomplish it. Like a difficulty 9 roll vs willpower or something.

As for erebus, I'm pretty certain it can still clense... Wasn't it mentioned in w20 core?

Sadly, W20 core doesn't mention cleansing BSDs. Which I find strange.

[Lyrics Of War]

Hm...peculiar. Well one could always house rule it aye? Though if i recall someone said w20 was revised rules tweaked just a little. I think Erebus (bathing in a planet of molten silver) should be a sufficient enough fix to that level of taint. Maybe it depends on the Spiral in question? A borderline incarna spiral shouldn't be able to cure that way, but then again they probably wouldn't want to.

[Ana Mizuki]

Hm...peculiar. Well one could always house rule it aye? Though if i recall someone said w20 was revised rules tweaked just a little. I think Erebus (bathing in a planet of molten silver) should be a sufficient enough fix to that level of taint. Maybe it depends on the Spiral in question? A borderline incarna spiral shouldn't be able to cure that way, but then again they probably wouldn't want to.

I'm have two theories about this;

1) Either the Devs just collective decided that,no, you cannot play a redeemed BSD that went to Erebus. Which goes against the whole 'Play Snowflakes if you like' mentality like woah.

2) They just forgot to add it.

Though, sadly I think the former might be the case.

[Erinys]

But you could accomplish the former by ruling that Erebus also mostly erases your memories along with the taint. Umbra Revised already says that memories of who you were and what you did before the Silver Forge cleansed you seem like no more than distant dreams. You don't keep any Gifts, Rites, or rank.

That said, Erebus can only drag the horse to the water, so to speak. The Silver Forge can cleanse physical taint and force a werewolf to confront the wrongness of what they've done, but cannot redeem anyone who can't then admit they need cleansing.


Regarding the Camps, it looks like all the old ones except the Cluithi are still types or philosophies within the tribe, just not organized as Camps anymore.

[Ana Mizuki]

But you could accomplish the former by ruling that Erebus also mostly erases your memories along with the taint. Umbra Revised already says that memories of who you were and what you did before the Silver Forge cleansed you seem like no more than distant dreams. You don't keep any Gifts, Rites, or rank.

Yeah, you can. I have done it in a game, in fact. But the issue here is that there maybe no -chance- to do it in 20th canon at all, memories or no memories.

[Lyrics Of War]

To swing the other way, would we assume that the spiral utilizing 'rite of the flayed god' to be looking for a spirit or attribute it idolizes? Example: A rather physically weak spiral taking to a spirit of granite to boost his defense? It would probably manifest as a soak roll like the armor charm. Perhaps looks appearing 'chiseled' like a statue, with stiff rough fur and rough hands like stone?

Maybe a Spiral obsessed with being the sexiest creature around, so she flays a spirit of lust. Boosts all charisma rolls by 4, body looks immaculate, even her Crinos form attracts the attention of the most devout Gaian Garou.

Thoughts on that? I find this rite woefully under writ for something that strikes me as an amazingly powerful rite/fetish creation.

[Furrly]

Speaking of Baneklaives, have any STs (or players?) used them in their games? Thematically, did they add anything that a klaive or grand klaive wouldn’t? Across all the weapon’s incarnations, I get the impression it’s a klaive with Wyrm poison. Is that an accurate perception?

No, a bane klaive is stronger than a grand kalive .... it does the same damage, it giveshas one more die to attack and drains gnosis from spirits and Garou (not sure about Garou). Plus is unsoakable from shapeshifters ..... The description though says it is not as well crafted as an original klaive, the stats are the same and better .....

[Nazfool]

No, a bane klaive is stronger than a grand kalive .... it does the same damage, it giveshas one more die to attack and drains gnosis from spirits and Garou (not sure about Garou). Plus is unsoakable from shapeshifters ..... The description though says it is not as well crafted as an original klaive, the stats are the same and better .....

Ahhh. Was the Damage of Grand Klaives changed in W20? Back in the proverbial day, wasn’t a Grand Klaive’s damage Strength +4 ? If so, do you think the stats were cut/pasted from BotW 2^nd? Might explain why it’s ‘better’ while the fluff says otherwise.

Thoughts?

[Lyrics Of War]

Grand klaives per w20 are str +5/A. Bane klaives per wyrm 20 are str+3/A with an added die to the pool, plus for every two points of damage to a spirit it drains one gnosis for the wielder. (Once per scene). So no, bane klaives are not stronger, just different and poorly made.