BotW20th, Black Spiral Topic

[Nazfool]

Grand klaives per w20 are str +5/A. Bane klaives per wyrm 20 are str+3/A with an added die to the pool, plus for every two points of damage to a spirit it drains one gnosis for the wielder. (Once per scene). So no, bane klaives are not stronger, just different and poorly made.

Thank you. In that case, ‘sounds like the Grand and the Bane are [more or less, mechanically] balanced. Yes/No?

[Lyrics Of War]

Eh more or less. The bane klaive is physically weaker, but bonuses an extra die for it's fetish activities and gnosis drain. Suppose it depends who gets hit faster

[Lyrics Of War]

Hey glamourweaver, there's a fetish called wolf skin that masks wyrm taint. It's how the black stags infiltrate Gaian ranks in apocalypse.

[glamourweaver]

Hey glamourweaver, there's a fetish called wolf skin that masks wyrm taint. It's how the black stags infiltrate Gaian ranks in apocalypse.

Where is that written up?

[Lyrics Of War]

Apocalypse page 197 (as in the end times book not any of the cores). "Wolf Skin Level One, Gnosis 6 In nearly every one of the tribal fall scenarios, the tribe of fallen Garou chooses to keep its Wyrm-tainted nature secret from the rest of the Garou Nation until the time is right to strike. The Wyrm grants each of the traitors a fetish to conceal its Wyrm-taint from the Gift: Sense Wyrm. This fetish is modeled after the Bane Skin fetish (see Werewolf, p. 301). It consists of an ounce or so of dried wolf flesh wrapped in silver wire and worn close to the flesh. The silver wire burns the
Garou slightly, but as a bonded fetish it doesn’t do damage or siphon off Gnosis. The Wolf Skin has a lifespan ranging from weeks to months (specifics are not detailed in order to better fit the Storyteller’s plan). At the end of that time, the fetish crumbles to dust within the span of a few hours, leaving the Garou who wears it with no protection against a casual use of Sense Wyrm. This seems to be the Wyrm’s way of telling its new subjects that while it can have a few weeks’ or months’ cover against the rest of the Garou Nation, they must strike as a tribe eventually." (Apocalypse pp 197)

[Nazfool]

So…

The Wyrm doesn’t create, but it corrupts and perverts. In the same vein, parts of Spiral culture seem to mimic that predilection. Using severed tentacles to craft their approximations of klaives, skinning humans to make armor, and torturing nature spirits into madness to serve as a Pit’s totem (to name a few) all seem to mirror the Wyrm’s ‘drive’ to corrupt and pervert. Sort of a macrocosm/microcosm type thing.

These jury-rigged grotesqueries mesh with the belief that the Apocalypse has come and gone and they’re just waiting for the dust to settle. [If they don’t see ‘the war’ as an ongoing conflict like the Gaians do, they probably don’t feel terribly compelled to spend time delicately crafting ‘storied weapons’.] So, where do items like Bane Lanterns and Baneklaives come from, culturally? Are they remnants from right after the White Howlers crawled out of the Black Spiral? Possibly corruptions of things White Howlers were familiar with? Am I overanalyzing this?

[Lyrics Of War]

Hm Possibly overanalyzing... but its fun to ponder!

My guess is it comes from fallen gaian Garou influence. I don't know if the howlers had awesome klaives, they strike me more like the Fenrir and used either fang and claw or some culturally sensitive weapon. Klaives in a lot of ways remind me of Roman Sparthas (sp) so I dunno if culturally they'd go for that; however, I imagine if they did they're either destroyed or lost... or someone is keeping it as a keep sake. The bane tentacles equaling their Klaives on a soldier level doesn't discount the psychological desire for one.

Take for example any Silver Fang. Who amongst them doesn't want a klaive? Then you take the fallen Silver Fangs, now in a tribe that lacks suck a device, and memories from before the spiral probably compel them to make such a weapon. For status. For appearance. For power. Remember one of the fallen silver fang groups were those in Scotland who worshiped what they thought to be Lion, so they probably took the concept with them.

[Nazfool]

Alright, that makes sense. After I posted the question, I started thinking about the Cluithi, but I guess they’re not a thing anymore.

The mention of Wyrm-fallen Silver Fangs reminded me of something; In the section ‘Becoming a Black Spiral Dancer,’ (around p. 104 of the GoogleDoc), it gives the impression that any Garou who dances the Black Spiral becomes a de facto (or would that be ‘de jure’?) Black Spiral Dancer. Did anyone else get that impression, or did I misread something?

And…

…Was anyone else disappointed that there isn’t any description of the Trinity Hive Pit?

Speaking of Pits, did anyone else find it odd that, of the three Pits described, that two seemed to describe Earthbo..err..Ancients?

[Lyrics Of War]

I feel like its building to something. Also makes me wonder if Antartica has an ancient slumbering in it... More power for Soul-Dancer at any rate. I actually love the new pits. Instead of being near worthless radiation holes, we get places of spiritual despair. In theory lizzie boden's house would make an excellent pit, or the home from texas chainsaw massacre. The Trinity Pit never bothered me as I don't care too much for those styles anyway. I like the subtle, near perfect monster. I'm also liking the new direction on kinfolk.

As for the Cluithi... I can't imagine them to remain a camp based on BSDS pure blood status being so very rare, so it's probably more like a pack. At any rate I intend full well to keep them as a thing in my games. They have a good lore basis in the previous books.

Becoming a Spiral looks to be about that. I think you need to be in a pit for that rite though so it isn't like they aren't dancing the actual spiral. This one just doesn't come with body warping cancer.

[Ana Mizuki]

In case the horror of the new BSD crinos forms didn't sink in;

In
Crinos, he takes the form of an unrelenting blasphemy. His Crinos form has the
semblance of a white wolf; with the preserved Crinos heads of various Garou he has slain
hanging from all over his hulking body. These heads are not dead, nothing so merciful,
they dangle, drooling blood, but their ears twitch, and at a command from the White
Hunter they growl, bite, howl, and even speak with the voices of the men and women
they once were.

[Ana Mizuki]

In case the horror of the new BSD crinos forms didn't sink in;

In
Crinos, he takes the form of an unrelenting blasphemy. His Crinos form has the
semblance of a white wolf; with the preserved Crinos heads of various Garou he has slain
hanging from all over his hulking body. These heads are not dead, nothing so merciful,
they dangle, drooling blood, but their ears twitch, and at a command from the White
Hunter they growl, bite, howl, and even speak with the voices of the men and women
they once were.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]nArray[/ATTACH]

[Ana Mizuki]

In case the horror of the new BSD crinos forms didn't sink in;

In
Crinos, he takes the form of an unrelenting blasphemy. His Crinos form has the
semblance of a white wolf; with the preserved Crinos heads of various Garou he has slain
hanging from all over his hulking body. These heads are not dead, nothing so merciful,
they dangle, drooling blood, but their ears twitch, and at a command from the White
Hunter they growl, bite, howl, and even speak with the voices of the men and women
they once were.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130806071434/villains/images/0/04/Pink_Elephants_on_Parade.jpg

Yeeeesh o.o

[Lyrics Of War]

Yeah I read that, but it seemed specific to him, and more like he was preserving the heads intentionally. The appearance of Crinos in all the examples varies drastically, and it was always those that had performed rite of the flayed god. I'm not sure what mutation would make him just 'grow' heads like that. Unless it is part of the cannibal spirit he wears... which would be extra freaky.

[The Cat Came Back]

Plus, the potential there isn't an Apocalypse? That is scary as hell to the Garou Nation.

Oh, there certainly is an Apocalypse. Even the Spirals look forward to frolicking around in the world before Father Wyrm eats the universe.

it's just that as far as the Spirals figure it, they don't have to work for it, and maybe never did. The Garou busy themselves with martyrdom, civil war, and self-sacrifice to save this stand of trees or that pod of whales... but the Wyrm marches on, walking over their nobly-dead and highly-renowned corpses. it's a war that is so vast, on so many fronts, that there's simply no way that the Garou could stave it off. All the Spirals have to do is sit back and watch. Every single Black Spiral Dancer could simply drop dead tomorrow, and nothing would change as far as the Apocalypse, the Wyrm, and Gaia are all concerned.

And this is how they recruit. They say to the Garou, "Look at this mess. You know you can't win. We sure know you can't win. You can die a futile death, or you can shake that shit off and live how you want to live." And you know what? That's probably the most tempting thing to ANY Garou. "RARGHLARGBLARGLE COME WORSHIP THE WYRM WE EAT BABIES THEY TASTE GREAT!!!!" was never going to convert anyone... But suggesting they just sit back and have a pina colada and watch the world burn from their living room? That might work.

After all, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[The Cat Came Back]

As for erebus, I'm pretty certain it can still clense... Wasn't it mentioned in w20 core?

Erebus ALWAYS cleanses what's thrown into the silver rivers. Always. it's just the way the realm works.

Thing is?

It can take years. It can take centuries of this unending, agonizing torment, for the taint to be purged. And nothing, absolutely nothing in the world, says you survive the process - Erebus is a realm that represents the Garou concept of purity and justice... And you might have your taint purged, only to get one of the Broodspears through your throat. Or finding that your wounds from the molten silver no longer heal.. .And you die for the sins you have committed; you are purged, not forgiven. The only forgiveness you might be able ot expect is that of Gaia welcoming your spirit back home.

Even if you survive, you remember everything. Every moment of searing, impossible, unrelenting agony, the horror of torments from the brood, the screams of others suffering as you did. Even should you be purged, and freed of the realm, you're pretty likely to be cuckoo for cocoa puffs for a LONG time after.

Purification via erebus is not a chronicle pit stop. it's a chronicle end point; whoever gets dunked in there isn't coming back out for a very long time, and odds are good they'll either be a corpse when they do, or nuttier than squirrel poop. The place is pretty much literally Hell.