BotW20th, Black Spiral Topic

[etherial]

Erebus ALWAYS cleanses what's thrown into the silver rivers. Always. it's just the way the realm works.

Thing is?

It can take years. It can take centuries of this unending, agonizing torment, for the taint to be purged. And nothing, absolutely nothing in the world, says you survive the process - Erebus is a realm that represents the Garou concept of purity and justice... And you might have your taint purged, only to get one of the Broodspears through your throat. Or finding that your wounds from the molten silver no longer heal.. .And you die for the sins you have committed; you are purged, not forgiven. The only forgiveness you might be able ot expect is that of Gaia welcoming your spirit back home.

Even if you survive, you remember everything. Every moment of searing, impossible, unrelenting agony, the horror of torments from the brood, the screams of others suffering as you did. Even should you be purged, and freed of the realm, you're pretty likely to be cuckoo for cocoa puffs for a LONG time after.

Purification via erebus is not a chronicle pit stop. it's a chronicle end point; whoever gets dunked in there isn't coming back out for a very long time, and odds are good they'll either be a corpse when they do, or nuttier than squirrel poop. The place is pretty much literally Hell.

Yeah, no. Erebus is a hopelessly tainted realm of eternal torture. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

[Lyrics Of War]

This is quite counter to how everyone else seems to think it goes... But your view makes perfect sense. As I've heard people describe it, Erebus seemed as a 'wham bam thank you ma'am I'm cured!" Realm.

[Ana Mizuki]

Erebus ALWAYS cleanses what's thrown into the silver rivers. Always. it's just the way the realm works.

Thing is?

It can take years. It can take centuries of this unending, agonizing torment, for the taint to be purged. And nothing, absolutely nothing in the world, says you survive the process - Erebus is a realm that represents the Garou concept of purity and justice... And you might have your taint purged, only to get one of the Broodspears through your throat. Or finding that your wounds from the molten silver no longer heal.. .And you die for the sins you have committed; you are purged, not forgiven. The only forgiveness you might be able ot expect is that of Gaia welcoming your spirit back home.

Even if you survive, you remember everything. Every moment of searing, impossible, unrelenting agony, the horror of torments from the brood, the screams of others suffering as you did. Even should you be purged, and freed of the realm, you're pretty likely to be cuckoo for cocoa puffs for a LONG time after.

Execpt you heal as you burn, so you never truly take damage. And ALL your memories are taken away as you are finally purified.

[Lyrics Of War]

So it's something like a brain/soul wipe?

[heinrich]

1) Many black spiral gifts need rework , actually many gifts need rework or house ruling, even in the core of W20.

Amen.


As far as the BotW20th gifts go. The level 2 gift that condemns souls, even of garou, to become wraiths? Seriously?
The matching level 4 gift, that turns those wraith into cheap two healthlevels and than destroy them ? WTF ?

[Lyrics Of War]

So if they made grave claws a higher level gift would that make it better then? I think the pair make for a particularly creepy combination, I imagine something like general grevious using fall Jedi's lightsabers in combat.

[Ana Mizuki]

So it's something like a brain/soul wipe?

It's more making the victim a blank slate, I think.

[Nazfool]

I’m wondering if the ‘intent’ of the aforementioned Gift was to be used against [just] humans? Even if it wasn’t, it might be easier to HR that way. Might make for an interesting story crux. Kinfolk being murdered for their ghost mojo and, rather than saving their lives (because it’s too late), the troupe has to do what it can to save their souls...

[Lyrics Of War]

And a direct assault against the spiral destroys their souls. How to work around that problem...

[heinrich]

So if they made grave claws a higher level gift would that make it better then? I think the pair make for a particularly creepy combination, I imagine something like general grevious using fall Jedi's lightsabers in combat.

I could see both gifts at level 4, but still, the gift is so elemental, that there would be stories about it and counter-gifts. So, I'd think that it should either be a gift that is a recent development, or (what I personally prefer) a gift limited to use on humans only.

That said, the rank 4 gift is mechanically rather weak. I would go for seven additional health level, each one lost right before the BSD's (so it is ghost's Bruised, than BSD's Bruised, than ghost's Hurt, than BSD's Hurt and so on). When all ghost health is destroyed, it should not be destroyed, but being send into an Harrowing. So that it can't be called upon again within a month or so. Also, the number of ghosts called by such mean's should be limited by permanent Gnosis or something.

[glamourweaver]

I'm tempted to reinterpret the Camps at my own table as follows...

Cluithi: the most "stereotypical" (from a Gaian Garou perspective) this MINORITY of the Black Spiral Dancers still believe a great final battle is to come and are rushing to prepare for it. Be it through mass breeding of Metis shocktroops, the active battle for Gaian Caerns to desecrate, and general devoted effort to fight for their given worshipped Malejin Incarnae in the Umbra. These fanatics are most likely to dwell in subterraneian, radioactive Pit cave-networks, inbreed with mutant kinfolk, and all the other stereotypes the Gaians expect from the BSDs. As with their name, they are known for twisted mockeries of their Pictish past in their rites and customs. To this effect they are making a concerted effort currently to take back Scotland from Fianna dominance. If this Camp could be said to have a "leader", it would be Zhyzak, the Legendary Ahroun prophesied to slay the Last Gaian King.

Princes of Ruin: the actual majority of the Black Spiral Dancers - they believe that the Apocalypse is over and has been won by the Wyrm, and now they carve their own kingdoms out in the ashes to indulge their depraved instincts. Pretty much the signature BotW20 ideology as written. Unlike the Cluithi, they are much more likely to engage with broader human society and power for personal gain, and to that effect are much more likely to actually be able to pass and have network of Kin that are actually respectable and functional rather than radioactive borderline-fomori inbred cannibals. Despite being the majority of the tribe, they are less the stereotype to the Gaian Garou because they are not actively pursuing a war against the Gaians like the Cluithi, so actively cross their paths less. They believe that war is over and they won already. They will of course attempt to eliminate any Gaian "throwbacks" who get in the way of their indulgent power. They are FAR too disparate to have anything close to a "leader" - as pursuing one's own selfish ends defines this Camp.

Company Wolves: Somewhat ideologically between the other two, these Pentex employees and "consultants" don't believe that there is still a great cosmic battle to end the world, but do support the collective agenda of the Pentex Omega Plan - which will reshape a new world from the ashes of the old; rather than simply carving out individual fiefdoms of personal indulgence like the Princes of Ruin (though certainly they largely share with the Princes a lust for power, and various horrific personal indulgences beneath the guise of civilized humanity and attendant authority). Obviously their current defacto leader is Francesco, though with the upcoming Board Elections whether he'll have serious competition from a fellow BSD on the Board remains to be seen. The exposure of Project LYCAON could also cause an insurrection against Francesco from his fellow Black Spirals.

[Nazfool]

I messed with the wording a little bit. Let’s see if this is the right track…


RAW

Grave Claws (Level Two) — The werewolf’s claws and fangs become obsidian daggers, capable of tearing the soul loose from Gaia’s cycle and pinning it to the Dark Umbra. Any creature slain by this Gift is guaranteed to leave behind a ghost, which is anchored by dark magic to its killer. A Nihilach teaches this Gift.

System: The player spends one point of Gnosis. Anyone killed by the character’s claw or bite attacks for the rest of the scene is guaranteed to linger as a wraith. A wraith created using this Gift cannot directly harm the Black Spiral Dancer, and is tormented by dark urges.

WC: 104

-Revision-

Grave Claws (Level Two) — The werewolf’s claws and fangs become obsidian daggers, capable of tearing the soul away and pinning it to the Dark Umbra. A human slain by this Gift is guaranteed to linger as a ghost, fettered to its killer by dark magic. A Nihilach teaches this Gift.

System: The Spiral spends one point of Gnosis. For the rest of the scene, any human killed by the Spiral’s claw or bite attacks is guaranteed to become a wraith tormented by dark urges. Wraiths created using this Gift cannot directly harm the Black Spiral Dancer. The Spiral may fetter a number of ghosts equal to his permanent Gnosis rating.

WC: 110

RAW

Stolen Hide (Level Four) — The Black Spiral Dancer can don tormented spirits like a cloak, consigning them to oblivion to protect himself. A Nihilach teaches this Gift, but only to those who have already mastered Grave Claws.

System: The character can only use this Gift against a ghost that she has created with Grave Claws. She spends a turn in concentration and her player spends one point each of Gnosis and Willpower, then makes a contested Stamina + Primal Urge roll against the ghost’s Willpower. Success stretches the ghost’s tortured plasm across the Dancer’s body as a kind of grotesque ablative armor. The werewolf gains two additional Bruised health levels for each ghost worn in this manner. These health levels are the first lost to damage, and when they both disappear, the ghost used to create them is destroyed.

WC: 139

-Revision-

Stolen Hide (Level Four) — The Black Spiral Dancer can don tormented spirits like a cloak, consigning them to oblivion to protect himself. A Nihilach teaches this Gift, but only to those who have already mastered Grave Claws.

System: The Spiral can only use this Gift against a ghost created with Grave Claws. After spending a turn in concentration, the Spiral spends one point of Gnosis and Willpower. The Spiral makes a contested Stamina + Primal Urge roll against the ghost’s Willpower. Success stretches the ghost’s tortured plasm across the Dancer’s body as a grotesque and ablative armor. The werewolf gains one additional Bruised health level for each extra success on the contested roll. These health levels are the first lost to damage. When these disappear, the ghost used to create them is destroyed.

WC: 133


Total RAW WC: 243
Total Revision WC: 243

[heinrich]

@Nazfool
With the limit to humans the Grave Claws works better.
I also like that the extra health with Stolen Hide is tied to the successes.

However - I'd like to see a way out in Stolen Hide, though, like the extra health isn't lost when the BSD is captured and starved or strangulated and so on... So that Garou can theoretically save the ghost, if needed...

Also there should probably be a statement like "if there are ghost's health levels remaining at the end of a scene, the gift ends and the ghost in question can be used for another usage of the gift." For, I don't think the gift should be activated once and then remain permanently - unless there is a specific mention of a downside of the obvious supernatural veil-threatening ecto-plasma armour....

[Nazfool]

@Nazfool
With the limit to humans the Grave Claws works better.
I also like that the extra health with Stolen Hide is tied to the successes.

However - I'd like to see a way out in Stolen Hide, though, like the extra health isn't lost when the BSD is captured and starved or strangulated and so on... So that Garou can theoretically save the ghost, if needed...

Also there should probably be a statement like "if there are ghost's health levels remaining at the end of a scene, the gift ends and the ghost in question can be used for another usage of the gift." For, I don't think the gift should be activated once and then remain permanently - unless there is a specific mention of a downside of the obvious supernatural veil-threatening ecto-plasma armour....

I wanted to keep within the draft’s current word count, so I didn’t add too much. I really (really really really) wanted to add some Wraith mechanics, but A) that’s beyond the draft’s WC and B) crossovers.

Since the Spirals aren’t really *supposed* to be PCs (even though everyone’s made at least one ), I didn’t delve too much into calls that STs could make. Can the ghosts be saved?
Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they can be if the troupe straps down the Spiral and performs an Exorcism or Rite of Cleansing.

If there are any remaining HLs at the end of the scene, they could be used again (?).


The Gift’s duration is a little vague. I’m just assuming it lasts a scene. Why not.

My personal interpretations, biased by WtO:

The “tormented by dark urges” part probably alludes to a Shadow, but I would take that one step further and say the ghost becomes a Mortwright. This is also why said ghost doesn’t go into a Harrowing after the Gift’s HLs are used up. It also makes “saving” the soul a little tricky, depending on the troupe: would they know the difference between a Wraith, a Spectre, and an Ancestor Spirit? Would they really want to save her if they knew their loved ones had become the Underworld’s equivalent of Banes?

I’d also say that the ghost’s murderer becomes a [number of HLs the Spiral got from the Gift]-dot Fetter and is magically bound to stay within…idk…10 meters…of the Spiral (?).

These are just the calls I might make. My goal was to focus on the intent of the Gift so STs have a good sense of thematic direction.

[Lyrics Of War]

I rather like it as is. But then I like all the gifts. Besides how often is this thing gonna come up? Unless the st is intentionally puttin it on every spiral...