BotW20th, Black Spiral Topic

[Lyrics Of War]

I dunno about eve... But picture a bsd if they were able to hide their taint and live with your pack, still helping the wyrm under your nose. Plus soulless wolf helps them hide. Giant grey wolf with dead black eyes.

[Nazfool]

They're recognized as the worst of the worst. But gameplay wise they make for stupid good drama. Your pack has been working hard to clear torture spirits out of a casinos area of influence, and then you find out your pack mate has been making it worse behind your back? And not until the silver dagger is in your back?

Ok. I can see the appeal. Kinda sounds like a cross between BSDs and EVE Online.

[Lyrics Of War]

They're recognized as the worst of the worst. But gameplay wise they make for stupid good drama. Your pack has been working hard to clear torture spirits out of a casinos area of influence, and then you find out your pack mate has been making it worse behind your back? And not until the silver dagger is in your back?

[Nazfool]

I'm unfamiliar with WtF, so I can't comment on thematic elements. However, based on your description, Bale Hounds do sound frickin' sweet.

EDIT: I found a little information on Bale Hounds. I’m not sure if I would use the phrase “encouraged as a player group.” Based on what I’ve seen referenced, I might go with “Less discouraged than BSDs.” Then again, I don’t have Blasphemies nor do I have any real knowledge of WtF’s overall narrative, so it wouldn’t be far fetched for me to misconstrue representations.

[Lyrics Of War]

See the thing about that is in NWoD, the bale hounds are friggin eeevil. They blatantly worship malevolent forces, and their patron first born is 'Soulless Wolf'. Yet they're an encouraged player group. All about subterfuge and killing from within, also building the influence of the maeljin you prefer to follow. Works similarly to spirals, albeit with more lies. Its less like apples and oranges and more like apples and grapples.

[Nazfool]

I still find it amusing that players are shunned away from playing spirals…

Like many things, I have a theory about that. Also, like many things, I can only speak with the authority and credentials of an over-opinionated forum troll.

To mind, there are two ‘critters’ in the cWoD that have been continuously discouraged from play: Black Spiral Dancers and Nephandi.

During the first iterations of some of the game lines, there were groups that were originally used as antagonists. The most prominent examples I can think of are the Technocracy and the Sabbat. As editions were written and more depth was added, they became more playable. Not because of additional game mechanics (although some of those were added), but because of revisitations of said groups’ meta-ideaologies. The Technocratic Union evolved from cybernetic control freaks to champions of the masses. The Sabbat evolved from an unholy rabble of nocturnal marauders to a sect of religious zealots fighting for vampiric freedom.

They became less ‘bad guys’ and more ‘the other side.’ More than that, roleplaying opportunities developed that weren’t there before. In the Sabbat, the chance for gamers to try their hands at portraying an alien meta-philosophy complimented the crux of Vampire’s “A beast I am, lest a beast I become.” In Mage, the Technocracy’s idea of Control gave players the opportunity to defend the dominant paradigm from ‘reality deviants.’ In both cases, there are great roleplaying opportunities. [Note] The roleplaying opportunities listed are by no means exhaustive. [/note]

The thing that makes critters like the Nephandi and the Black Spiral Dancers ‘unplayable’ isn’t their mechanics, their practices, or their ideologies (although things of that vein could leave a sour taste with some troupes); it’s their lack of thematic opportunities. With BSDs, old and new, the question of “When Will You Rage?” doesn’t feel like a challenge to the character. Instead, it just feels like the tagline for Lyncanthrope: the Rapture – When Will You Murder?

The Nephandi, in the scheme of the Ascension War, aren’t faced with the challenges of reclaiming lost paradigms or reinforcing/advancing the current ones. For the Nephandi, there is no “Truth Until Paradox.” It’s just “Creation is a lie and should be torn down.” Very little room for heroism there.


As always, just my two oboli.

[Lyrics Of War]

I noticed in w20 the bat like ears now fold up to look like "normal" crinos ears, and can unfurl into their full batness. So 1st edition spirals were as much of an exaggeration as the tribes themselves eh? Good to know. I still find it amusing that players are shunned away from playing spirals, and yet the Bale Hounds in forsaken are actively considered player character types. They're essentially the same, one just has better trigger control (the hounds).

[Possessed]

Huh. So they never HAD to look like mutants all the time?

Nope but they have traditionally had a considerable Metis population which along with some members actually being mutated due to various issues, old gifts for them tented to be present and affecting their appearance in all forms later retconned to less mutating natures in revised. For example Ears of the Bat Gift used to change the Spirals ears into the likeness of a Bat in all forms but Revised changed it so that in Homid/Glabro their ears just appeared larger but were still humanlike it still made the ears Bat-like in Crinos though so the mutant look didn't all go away.

[Ana Mizuki]

oooooh. I'm used to seeing the spirals as they appear in rites of renown. You know, big mutant bastards with spider legs and a penchant for insanity. So the write up for the spirals themselves isn't so different, but rather how they view the world.

It's more than the corruption is more within than without. Most Dancers can pass for a regular garou, only the most insane are the drooling maniacs with extreme deformities.

[Lyrics Of War]

oooooh. I'm used to seeing the spirals as they appear in rites of renown. You know, big mutant bastards with spider legs and a penchant for insanity. So the write up for the spirals themselves isn't so different, but rather how they view the world.

[Ana Mizuki]

Huh. So they never HAD to look like mutants all the time?

Not really, they -could-, and some shock troops did. But most could imitate Gaian garou just fine.

[Lyrics Of War]

Huh. So they never HAD to look like mutants all the time?

[Ana Mizuki]

Going back to dayalond's sister though, Is streaked with oily black fur considered a taint sign now? I know green isn't all that common as they no longer bale fire bathe.

It has always been a sign of BSD blood, along with red/balefire green eyes.

[Lyrics Of War]

Going back to dayalond's sister though, Is streaked with oily black fur considered a taint sign now? I know green isn't all that common as they no longer bale fire bathe.

[heinrich]

I'd argue that Athro aren't that common, but still there are common enough - they certainly aren't rare.
I don't mind the gift with the revisions to Grave Claws (as described above), however since actually the word "wraith" has fallen I feel that calling upon a gift (level 4 or not) to essentially destroy the soul of a person one has killed thyself seems kind of - well, unjust to WtO.

So, it is more of a Crossover problem. Wraiths have Corpus not Health and they don't die but have Harrowings (very simply put). They also have Willpower. So, a pretty strong willed wraith, forced into his wraith existence due to Grave Claws (with now means to resist), some years back is in the unfortunate situation that his killer made Athro rank and is calling upon Stolen Hide to last longer against a group of garou who attack.
And suddenly the wraith has to wish for the garou to loose - he even is betrayed by his strong will, for the BSD is likely to score only one or two successes, meaning the wraith will be destroyed really fast. That doesn't sit well with me.

Sure, it is a crossover problem, and if the ST and Players never go into a plot where they actually know the person that wraith was before, it doesn't matter much. Still, just reading the gift I come up with scenarios and in all of them the wraith being that fragile just wrong.

So, even if it raises the word count:
These health levels are the first lost to damage, and when all of them are lost, the ghost used to create them disappears - or is destroyed when five or more successes were scored activating the gift.

Something like that would sit more easily with me.