[2E] Ghosts & Integrity - How to get your Rank

[wyrdhamster]

So we have pointing out how becoming ghost after death is working in game by one of devs working on Geist: Sin - Eaters 2E. Here it is:

It's generally tied to Integrity at the moment of death. There are occasional exceptions (and of course in-universe it's a little more ambiguous because people can't see their own character sheets), but the rule of thumb is if your Integrity is < 7, you come back Rank 1, if it's 7-9 you come back Rank 2, and if it's 10 you don't leave a ghost at all; whether that means you just stop existing or go back into the wheel of reincarnation or skip the busted-ass Underworld altogether and pass on to the "real" afterlife is anybody's guess.

Maybe I'm weird, but did not the progression should be in reverse? High Integrity, less disturbed host you become? Rank 2 ghosts are to be run as almost dedicated characters, going for almost Aspirations, from what I know about setting lore on them - and those will be much more low Integrity than 'almost saints ones'.

[WHW]

So now instead of torturing people to death to grind their Integrity and create a Ghost that I can mine for data and secrets, I need to patch up their Integrity but not too much? That will lead to some wacky Mage protocols.

[wyrdhamster]

I think I would be much more okay with this progression:

Integrity: 7-10 -> You go to the Afterlife, not living the ghost behind you.
Integrity: 6-5 -> You leave Rank 1 ghost.
Integrity: 4 and lower -> You leave Rank 2 ghost.

From the lore of 1E ghosts are left when something bad happen to you. Not every person leave one - most even don't. And those higher in Rank are 'more mad' and seperated from humanity. As most humanity work to have higher than lower Integrity, it works with with setting as we have it. Also, we need this for the scenes like this:

[milo v3]

Rank 2 ghosts are more "human" than rank 1 ghosts in 2e, so it makes sense for the people with more stable souls to coalesce into the more human ghosts rather than crazed echoes.

And those higher in Rank are 'more mad' and seperated from humanity.

That is only for ghosts warped by the underworld. So Rank 3+.

[wyrdhamster]

Rank 2 ghosts are more "human" than rank 1 ghosts in 2e, so it makes sense for the people with more stable souls to coalesce into the more human ghosts rather than crazed echoes.

So for 2E it should be then something like this:
Integrity 7-10 -> You go to the Afterlife, not living the ghost behind you.
Integrity 6-5 -> You leave Rank 2 ghost.
Integrity 4 and lower -> You leave Rank 1 ghost.

Most people should not leave ghost or we will have 'over population' of Twilight. Most of humanity has Integrity 7, so it does have sense to limit this and any above Integrity from ghost creation.

[milo v3]

Most people should not leave ghost or we will have 'over population' of Twilight. Most of humanity has Integrity 7, so it does have sense to limit this and any above Integrity from ghost creation.

He wasn't suggesting everyone comes back as a ghost except for people with 10 integrity, he was saying why some ghosts come into the world at different ranks. They still need a "something" to come back as a ghost in the first place before integrity determines their rank (and if the person is integrity ten, then they don't make a ghost even if something happens that would make them a ghost).

[21C Hermit]

High-Ranking ghosts aren't those gone mad. They're those that became more cognizant. Rank 1 ghosts are psychic recordings who aren't even aware of what they are. Rank 2 ghosts realize that they're dead people. Go Rank 3 and beyond, and ghosts slowly understand that they're not the same person as the dead one, and that they're not human anymore, and start to reach out to their true potential as nascent death-gods.

A Rank 1 ghost can only haunt its site of death, replaying its last moments of life or death. They can't go on a quest for vengeance, because they don't even know they need one. A Rank 2 ghost, on the other hand, is very aware of how it died, and is likely out for blood. The latter rising from people who are (relatively) more self-aware, represented by high Integrity, seems to make sense for me.

[wyrdhamster]

He wasn't suggesting everyone comes back as a ghost except for people with 10 integrity, he was saying why some ghosts come into the world at different ranks. They still need a "something" to come back as a ghost in the first place before integrity determines their rank (and if the person is integrity ten, then they don't make a ghost even if something happens that would make them a ghost).

Well, it does have transfer on other gamelines, like for example Mage and it's ghosts population. And like WHW mentioned - creating ghost from your prisoner should be viable tactics.

Even then if we assume GimpInBlack proposed spread of ghosts - we get more Rank 2 ghosts than Rank 1. Simply because of most humanity is having Integrity 7. If both Rank 1 and Rank 2 need same 'something' to come back ( I assume Anchor or special Aspiration in the moment of death ), the only difference in populations is Integrity levels. And most humans has Integrity 7 ( more or less ) in Chronicles of Darkness universe.

On the other hand, high Integrity characters are too rare to make them needed for Rank 2 ghosts - finding one in most chronicles is tough. And Rank 2 ghosts are more numerous than those. But still their numbers should be much lower than Rank 1 ghosts.

So we end with non sense Integrity progression or overpopulation of Twilight.

[21C Hermit]

Well, what's wrong with more ghosts being self-aware? They've been always the more populous type of ephemeral entity in the physical world. Them being at least being able to talk to mediums looks nice to me.

[wyrdhamster]

Well, what's wrong with more ghosts being self-aware? They've been always the more populous type of ephemeral entity in the physical world. Them being at least being able to talk to mediums looks nice to me.

Because it's contrary to gamelines canon. Here is quote from CoD Rulebook:

Ranging from broken, animated afterimages, unable to do anything but reenact their death, to intelligent, malevolent, once-human spirits with power over whatever kind of calamity killed them, the world teems with vast numbers of the restless dead. More ghosts exist than any other supernatural creature, but the truly powerful, independent specters of legend are rare.
The majority of ghosts are poor at influencing the world, trapped in their insubstantial state and unable to even Manifest, noticed only as a strange chill or eerie vibe if the living sense them at all. Ghosts are drawn to places and people that they had emotional connections to in life — these anchor the ghost in the world and allow those with enough power to Manifest, whereupon they carry out whatever mad urges they still feel and attempt, in their broken state, to further the goals they left undone in life.

Rank 1 ghosts should have much higher numbers than Rank 2.

[21C Hermit]

I don't see any part of the lines you bolded saying anything about the self-awareness of ghosts. Only their impotency.

I see the "truly powerful, independent specters of legend" that are rare as the Rank 3+ ones. They're rare because they're stuck in the Underworld.

And "The majority of ghosts are poor at influencing the world" because they're only at Rank 1-2. Even at Rank 2, there's only so much an ephemeral entity can do.

[milo v3]

creating ghost from your prisoner should be viable tactics.

It is as much as it was.

So we end with non sense Integrity progression or overpopulation of Twilight

I still don't see how the integrity progression is non-sensical, more stable souls lead to more stable ghosts. Simple. And the overpopulation doesn't happen because things need to happen for a ghost to be made, like a person who dies distressed and alone, a crazed murderer, or a overpowering desire to keep their child safe.

Rank 1 ghosts should have much higher numbers than Rank 2.

And that's what happens, because the circumstances which cause the creation of ghosts tends to occur more to individuals with low integrity.

[wyrdhamster]

It is as much as it was.

No, it does not. Being locked up in prison ( or just cuffed ) wold be small Breaking Point for most persons.

I still don't see how the integrity progression is non-sensical, more stable souls lead to more stable ghosts. Simple. And the overpopulation doesn't happen because things need to happen for a ghost to be made, like a person who dies distressed and alone, a crazed murderer, or a overpowering desire to keep their child safe.

Those things happen to both high and low Integrity people - just low Integrity ones have more events like those in their lives. But in Chronicles of Darkness, anyone (can) die with those motives. Murders are higher rating, missing persons are higher - heck, it's said in canon that anyone alive has been 'touched' by supernatural. If all that is to make ghost is 'I need some unfinished business' than like 80% of world population that die right now will become ghosts.

And that's what happens, because the circumstances which cause the creation of ghosts tends to occur more to individuals with low integrity.

More to low Integrity, but almost anyone in CoD universe can become ghost by having one of those reasons.

[21C Hermit]

This is kinda getting close to the "What's the ratio of (given supernatural type) in a city's population" stuff.

EDIT: And not in a good way.

[WHW]

That's what happens when you state things like this without thinking about their consequences for the ecology. Then again, I won't state my opinion on this, because I didn't read the whole thing and I'm basing my comments only on the stuff from the first post.