How would you do the Empyrean?

[Enderdragon1201]

So,we know a little bit about the Empyrean,we know it's a counterpart of the Inferno and it's less focused on human Vice than the Inferno. And i'd like to know, if you were to develop the idea further,what would your Empyrean be like? Would you base it's inhabitants in abrahamic angels or would you situate pagan gods there too? what woud the inhabitants be like in general?

If I were to do something with the Empyrean, it would be a realm of Essence in a far "purer" form than the Essence used by spirits, and its inhabitants would be a kind of "super-spirits"; each one is immensely powerful, and whereas spirits are resonant with certain aspects of reality the Empyrean "angels" each represent a given aspect, and are the sole representations of that aspect; there are many owl spirits, however there is only a single Empyrean of Owls, a single Empyrean of Toys, a single Empyrean of Disease, and so on. Each one would be comparable to or more powerful than spirits of Rank 10. Some may take on a vaguely humanoid form and those that represent animals would look somewhat like those animals, but even those would look less like actual creatures and more like ethereal or divine beings that look somewhat like them, and those that represent less physical aspects of reality would look about as alien as one might except from the representation of an abstract concept. They rarely ever interact with our world however, as even the Shadow's Essence is too diluted to sustain them for long, and our world proves toxic after a relatively short amount of time.

Keep in mind with all of this that 1; I'm not a fan of statless beings in ttrpgs, so when I say that they are stronger than Rank 10 spirits I would still be giving them traits, along with also providing systems for ephemeral beings of Rank 6+, and 2; while I like Mage, I'm not a big fan of trying to explain every other gameline through their cosmology and lore, so the above outline isn't intended to go along with the whole "higher than Supernal" idea, though that being said it wouldn't be a hard tweak to make, just say that they are the "Super-Supernal" conceptual embodiments of their aspects and there you go.

[ArcaneArts]

I think it depends what you mean by 'the same'. I vaguely remember Dave Brookshaw commenting once that Malcolm Sheppard liked to put in references to other settings in CofD as a way of implying a greater degree of cohesion to the cosmology than was actually present (and he's probably not the only one). I suspect this is probably one example. To compare, the same sidebar in IM also refers to the Empyrean as "a Principle", whilst the sidebar in Inferno refers to angels in passing as "Qashmalim" (which they certainly act quite similar to). Now, those aren't direct references exactly, but I don't think they were chosen accidently either.

And it was in this vein that I made the statement.

[Michael]

Admittedly it's been a hair bit since I read the two, because the Empyrean so quickly revealed itself to be almost purely valuable only as academic consideration, but from what I recall on both, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the twain were written under the assumption of being the same.

I think it depends what you mean by 'the same'. I vaguely remember Dave Brookshaw commenting once that Malcolm Sheppard liked to put in references to other settings in CofD as a way of implying a greater degree of cohesion to the cosmology than was actually present (and he's probably not the only one). I suspect this is probably one example. To compare, the same sidebar in IM also refers to the Empyrean as "a Principle", whilst the sidebar in Inferno refers to angels in passing as "Qashmalim" (which they certainly act quite similar to). Now, those aren't direct references exactly, but I don't think they were chosen accidently either.

[ArcaneArts]

In Imperial Mysteries it is (or it kinda is, the sidebar in IM reads to me as slightly ambiguous if that's a concrete title for a piece of the cosmology, or if it's just the name of the sidebar; simply being one of many potential names for what is still only a hypothetical). However, Nicolas Milioni was pretty clearly asking about the Empyrean proposed in Inferno which is quite different.

Admittedly it's been a hair bit since I read the two, because the Empyrean so quickly revealed itself to be almost purely valuable only as academic consideration, but from what I recall on both, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the twain were written under the assumption of being the same.

[Nicolas Milioni]

i thought they were the same?

[Michael]

Rather the opposite. The Empyrean is a hypothetical bit of the Supernal wherein basically "meaning" or "essence" is at it's purest form, untethered from any and all semiotic expression, from which the rest of the Supernal's symbols are filled with. To repeat Satchel's use of the Tao Te Ching, it is the true, nameless Tao.

In Imperial Mysteries it is (or it kinda is, the sidebar in IM reads to me as slightly ambiguous if that's a concrete title for a piece of the cosmology, or if it's just the name of the sidebar; simply being one of many potential names for what is still only a hypothetical). However, Nicolas Milioni was pretty clearly asking about the Empyrean proposed in Inferno which is quite different.

[ArcaneArts]

Nevertheless, if made into a Lower Depth, it’s fundamemtally broken. If it’s a code word for the Supernal World, then it isn’t a Lower Depth.

What part of "hypothetical part of the Supernal" sounds like either "code word" or "Lower Depth."

[Demigod Beast]

Nevertheless, if made into a Lower Depth, it’s fundamemtally broken. If it’s a code word for the Supernal World, then it isn’t a Lower Depth.

[ArcaneArts]

“The Empyrean”? As in a Lower Depth? By definition, a Lower Depth is a broken world-fragment, lacking some cosmic or mundane concept found throughout the Fallen World. As such, they’re not pleasant places to be.

I’d imagine the Empyrean being so pure, so blindingly bright, that all impurity burns away. Things with a Vice or a Vice-equivalent just catch fire in the presence of such broken rightness. It’s like a beautiful radioactive wasteland, where great machines of blinding purity stride to and fro on unknowable tasks.

Rather the opposite. The Empyrean is a hypothetical bit of the Supernal wherein basically "meaning" or "essence" is at it's purest form, untethered from any and all semiotic expression, from which the rest of the Supernal's symbols are filled with. To repeat Satchel's use of the Tao Te Ching, it is the true, nameless Tao.

[Demigod Beast]

“The Empyrean”? As in a Lower Depth? By definition, a Lower Depth is a broken world-fragment, lacking some cosmic or mundane concept found throughout the Fallen World. As such, they’re not pleasant places to be.

I’d imagine the Empyrean being so pure, so blindingly bright, that all impurity burns away. Things with a Vice or a Vice-equivalent just catch fire in the presence of such broken rightness. It’s like a beautiful radioactive wasteland, where great machines of blinding purity stride to and fro on unknowable tasks.

[Nicolas Milioni]

understood 👍

[ArcaneArts]

i see,so just to be sure,you fellas don't think any Empyrean possessed exist?

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

alt text: No.

[Nicolas Milioni]

i see,so just to be sure,you fellas don't think any Empyrean possessed exist?

[21C Hermit]

As above, but as one thing can have many names, so can one name have many things… There could be a Virtuous counterpart to the infamous Vice-Ridden pit, whose inhabitants feed on sacrifice instead of suffering. And since sacrifice and suffering go hand in hand, the difference might be purely academic in the end…

Or it could be A’aru, à la Mummy. Hey, the Judges are pretty concerned about justice too… (in which case, ‘angels’ would be Avatars and Amkhata, and ‘saints’ would be Benbenet and sorcerers)

[ArcaneArts]

I wouldn't, because the idea behind the Empyrean obviates the purpose of rendering it as a discrete world. The concept shows up by name in two sidebars in Inferno and Imperial Mysteries, and the former doesn't even postulate a world and the latter applies the term to a realm of raw, undifferentiated meaning behind the symbolic filter of the Supernal, which only the Ascended can truly know.

In familiar Western theological terms, going to the Empyrean is being one with God, who sends angels to carry out his will in the world. You can't meaningfully go a further layer of abstraction above "this is a form the underlying mechanics of reality have been rendered into so that you can parse it without your soul exploding," because anything deeper that can be described is just another layer of symbolic conveyance.

The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.

Seconded.

inserting cool quotes....

Lord Intra gathered his retainers, who were hungry for tutelage. “Lord Intra!” said his sandal bearer, “What is the first step on the path to Royalty?”

“There are no steps,” replied Intra, “It is zero-sum with your reality. It is not measured in finger-lengths.”

“Lord Intra,” said his bodyguard, “Is the path to Royalty the path of struggle, then?”

“No,” said Intra, “One may attain it without any effort at all. It is, in fact, the antithesis of struggle.” Intra’s steward was very discontent with his master’s evasiveness.

“Lord,” he said, “Allow us lowly men some small measure of understanding. For sympathy’s sake, and the sake of we good and loyal servants, please tell us in plain language the nature of Royalty.”

“I will tell you precisely what Royalty is,” said Intra, “It is a continuous cutting motion.”

To cut properly, you must continually self-annihilate when cutting. Your hand must become a hand that is cutting, your body a body that is cutting, your mind, a mind that is cutting. You must instantaneously destroy your fake pre-present self. It is a useless hanger on.