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Let's Talk about Combat in Chronicles of Darkness

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  • Let's Talk about Combat in Chronicles of Darkness

    Okay, this should be interesting. A lot, but interesting.

    Role playing games have an interesting problem in contrast to many of its other gaming peers on the virtue that so much of it is unbounded-there's no strict enforcing of any particular part, piece, or whole. In card games and board games, while you can use the pieces in ways counter to their design, the general specificity of those pieces means playing the game in accordance to the rules, and those rules are often strict enough, often with clear enough consequences for breaking them that deterrence is just built in. In video games, anything the developer's don't want you doing just isn't included in the game and therefore isn't possible by the language of it's own action, the closest example of actual deviance being nothing about player agency, but instead in mishaps in the language of the game engine (glitches and the like).

    By contrast, the freedom to deviate is such an assumed factor of tabletop roleplaying games that it's one of the bigger debates in the field, the question of just how much is actually given to the game to manage versus the players to manage and figure out, and even design and create. This leads to a wide variety of games where on one end, the rules are meant to become the bones and implied substance of the game world, and on the other end have game that might give you the setting or even just a premise, and then leaves it to players to arbitrate and answer anything that comes up. Even if the majority of the games exists somewhere in the middle, it can still get really fiddly as different games approach how players are supposed approach the game, or even different parts of the game, without being directly clear about it, relying on players to play towards the theme and tone of the rest of the game and to otherwise intuit the intentionality behind any of its parts.

    The consequences of this, on a deep enough involvement with the hobby, is that every player is, in some way or another, equipped with tools for understanding game design, but that can be anything from the equivalent of having a few tools thrown at them and presenting them with shambled lean-tos to having a really in-depth, "I've played this system so much I could make a game with it and not have it suck" level of knowledge for one particular tabletop gaming engine...that will completely fall apart of them when they try to make something that would work better with another root system. Of course, some people will go on even further than that and build and practice enough that you can expect them to be functionally competent if they need to imagine a fix or answer in any game they pick up, but those people can be rare, and it often takes time, money, and exploration a lot of people can't do-most people will only have the one game or at most a handful of games that may or may not even be using a similar base game engine. Some newbies reading this might even be taken aback at thinking of TTRPGs having game engines.

    Of no small part contributing to that problem is that a lot of the keys that make up understanding any given tabletop game are often in the narrative of the game rather than its mechanics. Sure, a system for designing a class might not actually have anything saying that you can't auto-cast Meteor Swarm for free with re-rolls of the five lowest scoring damage, but if game is mostly about low-magic, bag of small tricks late 1940s wizard detectives who only get to throttle the heavens in climaxes where they return to the fantasy overworld that is the ongoing metaphysical consequences of World War 2, then maybe this isn't an ability they're supposed to start with. Understanding the way theme, genre, mood, design intent affect a game's play is one of those things that you might not even think about, but goes a long way in making a game enjoyable within its constraints.

    Which, of course and at long last, brings us around to talking about Combat in Chronicles of Darkness.

    I've seen a lot of confusion on Chronicles combat over the years. I've seen complaints that it's both too lethal and not lethal enough, I've seen confusion on how to have "boss battles", I've seen the action economy argued to hell and back, I've seen it be something people have grappled with across multiple gamelines. Because this tackles a lot of different complaints, I can't offer a universal answer for the conflict I've seen people have with the combat in Chronicles, beyond what I've addressed up to now-that essentially, people are just having a disconnect between what Chronicles is primarily built for versus things they want to do with it, mostly as a result of their expectations based on their own desires, understanding of the pieces, or prior experiences with other games. I also can't hope to answer all of those particular ones, because that's a lot of work and I feel like some people not like being called out (even if that's not the point.) So, then, my goal is more to make a hopefully comprehensive look at the way combat is thought about and works in Chronicles, laying out the principles that leads into it's action, the general story structure that's built into damage, some of the ways the individual gamelines play around with and tweak those expectations, and how certain popular combat archetypes work with that.

    If that sounds like a lot, that's because it is. So let's get into it.

    Part 1: The Principles of Chronicles Combat and What Goes Into Them

    Not every combat or the scenarios that lead into them are the same, of course. Just as people are myriad and iteratively different from each other, the particulars that make up any fight are just that-particular. And yet, just like there can be enough similarities between people that it can be easy to understand their archetype or stereotype, economic class or cultural upbringing, fights can gain similar points of similarity. And we're not even talking about fiction and genre conceits yet.

    But with that, I bring it up because these principles do not need to be understood as universal to nevertheless be something you should know. Chronicles is a horror game that relies on horror logic, and in that way it can take on a very tactical element-not in the sense of like a wargame or something like Dungeons and Dragons, but more like what you'd get in tactical shooters. A lot of conflicts are played out more in terms of recon and manipulation, learning more about what opposition can do and otherwise trying to delay getting into a fight until an overwhelming victory can be assured, and that victory might not even be the result of a fight. Not every combat will play out that way, of course, not everyone will adhere to-but it's important to note those as exceptions, and to know why they are exceptional, whether that be exceptionally tough or exceptionally foolhardy (and thus may be morally challenging).

    So, with that said, the four Principles of Combat and THe Odd One Out.

    Principle 0: Know What's Worth Losing For Winning, and Vice Versa
    This one is not strictly combat so much as it is understanding Chronicles in general, because everything that happens in Chronicles starts from this principle. In short, everyone is generally doing whatever they're doing for a reason, and that doing things has costs-in terms of time, funds, tools, resources, and, of course, lives. These reasons can be flippant, ill-thought out, and small, which for our purposes can maybe lead to small fights of no consequences, but the more frequent fact is that these goals are often more important than that, and in fact often serves as the point of a story. Knowing what's worth grasping at, what reaching costs, and when to pull back forms the basis of all conflict in Chronicles, and the sooner this is embraced, the more you can understand when combat actually happens.

    Principle 1: No One Wants to Get in a Fight, Even if You Want To
    Let's not mistake this for pacifism-the world of Chronicles is quite happy to embrace to violence all around as a variety of tools to resolve problems. But that's not the same thing as a fight. Fights are inconvenient to everyone, from the freshly turned neonate to the best prepared guildmaster of the Maa-Kep. Why? Well, from the pragmatic level, it's because fights are just generally inefficient implementation of resources. If something's a fight, it means you haven't securely gotten or set up whatever you're going for, and it means that you're wasting time, martial and mystical resources, and the health, wholeness, and even lives of the actors you have dealing with that-all resources that could probably be better used more efficiently and fully in some other capacity. On the more personal level, getting into a fight is a scary, uncertain prospect, with every swing of a fist, slash of a knife, and trigger-pull of a gun being a series of coin tosses of saving or killing you. There's a lot of variables that happen in fights, and even those really skilled at them having removed a lot of their own personal variables generally finds it still too much to ever be comfortable with.

    That's inconvenient, of course, because as players we really enjoy the catharsis that comes with the transgression of getting into a fight, and it's just a good and solid tool for tension and drama. But don't worry-fight's do still happen, it's just people in Chronicles try to control for them as much as possible. The grand irony is that, by embracing the fact no one wnats to get into a fight, the fights that happen are just that much more substantial, dramatic, and memorable. But we'll get there. In the meantime, how do most conflicts play out?

    Principle 2: Seize with Overwhelming Advantage, Retreat with Anything Less
    In horror, the protagonists often don't make a stand against the monster unless they have a good plan and a LOT of resources to make that plan work, even if they're cobbled together. Most of the rest of the time, they do the sensible thing and run, with those who try to make a stand with a weapon or what not finding out the small advantage is not enough in lethal ways. If you've been around the military at all in your life, you might find that reflecting their sensibilities-units tend to not act on something unless they can ensure they can sweep in, complete their objectives, and either leave or control the location without any(Well, more like many) casualties or debilitating injuries-sometimes, even amongst their opposition. Otherwise, if something comes in, it's basic protocol to pull as smart a controlled retreat as possible, recon as much as possible, and retaliate when you know you can control the scenario. The general principle is that by performing these strikes of overwhelming advantage, you've controlled for the efficiency of getting what you want out of the scenario by risking the least out of your major resources and spending the least of your minor resources.

    Whether you're leaning into it for the genre conceit or just handling things logically, the big thing to understand is that a lot of conflict tends to be chases more than combats. If your players get the drop on the opposition, it's gonna be better for them to basically stop what they're doing, get the fuck out, regroup and arm up, and then go at them again to just get into a fight. If you're investigating the old mansion and round the corner to the dominating howl of a werewolf, it doesn't matter how many silver bullets you have, you're better running away, getting your friends, finding a defensible position, and then pounding silver into than trying to gun it down in the moment. Sure, you might take some shots to help you get out, but actively engaging with the werewolf is not a winning recipe.

    In this way, it's good to understand most conflict in Chronicles as being extended games of cat and mouse with people chasing one another out and away, following up on people while building up and chasing them out, trying to get what's needed or needed doing, and tactically retreating. Fighting an unknown quantity is lesser than backing the hell out, learning how big the guys were, becoming three times as big, and then going in to clap them back. As a bonus, this approach can help players to feel smart in certain defeats and like absolute badasses in victory.

    Principle 3: Compromise is Good Survival Tactics and Even Better Foreplay
    It may seem like talking with the opposition has no place in the subject of combat, and you'd be right-but it has a lot to do with everything around it. See, a minor extension of no one wanting to get into a fight is that no one really wants to kill anyone either, most of the time. That may sound contradictory, but again borrowing from military tactics for pragmatism, it's often more expensive for an enemy to have to nurse a comrade back to health than it is to replace them. A dead ally of an enemy can demoralize them, but a wounded one can slow them down and make the easy to track to their hidey holes of resources. ANd, of course, if you actually kill anyone, they're that much more incentivized to kill you, which means they're that much more of a problem of getting in the way of what you want, which means, you guessed it, more wasted resources. You don't want to lose for winning, you don't want to buy more enmity than you can pay for. (Also, we'll talk more about this in the damage types)

    Let's bring this around to the defensive take, though-as a general, fight to the last breath sounds all good and fun, but as a rule, any conflict you can walk away from is a good one. So, if you end up in a situation where you can't retreat from overwhelming force, survive and compromise. Find out what the other side wants. Give it to them. Do them the favor. Offer up a hostage. Lie, scheme, and gamble about and on all of that. It need not always be a direct compromise with the enemy-maybe you never thought you'd enact the wisdom of outrunning a bear, but you got claws where your cultist's got a track gold star and it really is a matter of them or you. But as a general rule, a lot of the worst TPK's end up as the result of people standing and fighting when they could be taking a step back with a compromise, and even finding a better way forward from there. Make hard decisions, embrace the drama, and take the alternative to death and make it work for you.

    Even better, though, is using compromise as your forward. Got all the power and know it, meet them and compromise. DOn't know what they got? Compromise. In the case of the former, a well placed compromise can save you even more resources, and hell might get you an ally, or at least a better idea of their larger picture. In the latter case, while you do want to have a control for escape and defense before giving it a go, arranging for a compromise might mitigate any conflict at all, allows your crew more time to shape up who they are, gives you a chance to learn and know more about what's going on, and creates time for you to create an advantage you might not have had.

    The big thing, though, is that talking, learning, negotiating, compromising-all of these are preferable to an actual fight, even if you have the advantage, because controlling the outcome and getting the most out of conflict is preferable to simply winning a skirmish.

    Principle 4: You Can Stop Seeking the Advantage When You're About To Lose It All
    As a general rule, the previous principles are about the import of doing what you're there to do and controlling as many variable as you can, which a fight does not let you do. But, you know, all of that control and seeking of advantage, it is to the end of a goal, a desire. Power hoarded for power's sake, for the purpose of this conversation, doesn't do you a lick of good if you're going to ultimately lose the chance to get what you want(even if is, technically, "more meaningful power"-large scale ambition for advantage should not be confused with small scale advantages). The parameters of "get what you want", of course, is not a fixed form, and very little is a one way street-part of the reason why it's good to compromise is that it's better to acknowledge there are many roads to an end and putting it all on one option is a poor gamble-but eventually, there is "Get it or don't", and when that comes, it kind of doesn't matter where the balance is-it's better to act than not. Of course, you need to have good instincts for that, and that's going to come with practice of the prior principles (unless, of course, it's the end goal of, like, stop this group from ending the world, but hopefully your climaxes have more dramatic stakes than that)

    More importantly, though, is when to cut the line between gaining the advantage and losing a whole lot more. Sure, you may be able to outpower or manipulate a situation into another edge, but if the gamble is a major hit to your cult/gang/squad/whatever, it's better to get into the fight than to push the other way. Sometimes, it just isn't worth winning for losing, and the prices needed to pay for winning with control aren't worth it, not when the far lower cost of the gamble is on the table.

    At the end of the day, you want to win, and while the majority of that is knowing more, having more, and stacking the entire deck to the best, there's occasions where it's better to flip the table and get into it. You don't want to rely on that, but never deny yourself options on the way to the bottom of the barrel.

    Part 2: The Escalating Narrative Inherent in Damage and Why You Should Use It


    One of the more recurring problems I see come up with descriptions of combat in gameplay is that people tend to rush towards the more lethal forms of Lethal and Aggravated damage, and then wonder why the game is missing something or other. It's an instinct I DO understand all too well-the need for threat and drama is most heavily loaded at one end of the discussion, and the atavistic part of us that gets a thrill from this part of the game goes " USE! USE! USE!" But that would be missing the fact there is a general narrative baked into Chronicle's damage system that is intended to pair towards escalating conflict as parties get more and more in each others way for what they want, and the general dance of manipulation and misdirection and "professional courtesy" gives way towards more and more vitriol, hatred, and monstrosity. So, let's explore that.

    As a disclaimer, while we will be talking about the damages, we're mostly actually interested in the way Wound Penalties are important for the story, and more specifically what comes along with the full damage track of each cash. Since Wound Penalties are consistent across the board, we'll knock that out here. While full blown, ready to kill each other combat is most readily concerned with stacking as many negative modifiers onto opponents as possible to make is that much easier to rack up a full row of damage, it should be noted that the Wound penalties on their own can be hefty enough for a lot of rolls, particularly at the full end where they'll also be coping with the full row risk. That alone is form of powerful persuasion and compromise, a notice that can be leveraged as the reason to end a fight there and then, either by having the good sense, or having either side putting up compromise as an alternative statement-characters in that position should probably have been thinking about an escape clause a turn ago, to be honest.

    Okay, with that laid out, let's talk damages.

    Bashing Damage-It's How We Say Hello
    The province of bar fights, people slapping at you for stabbing them in the dark unexpectedly, and much more, the big thing to understand about Bashing damage is that in a theoretical world, this is all you need-bang a dude in the head until he's ready to go unconcious, and then wait until they do. The tragedy and horror of Chronicles is that so many of the monsters have a way of mitigating that , either never facing the risk of unconsciousness or basically just having a real hard time keeping or taking bashing damage to begin with, coupled with how many tools don't aid with dealing bashing damage (though electricity remains your friend). Nevertheless, this is main way a lot of people would rather deal with someone who is in the way and can't be manipulated out of it-killing someone risks some kind of follow-up and retribution, where as some identity obscuring elements and otherwise carrying some post-fight materials to make the opponent seem an unreliable witness tends to do a lot of of the work for covering up. Because of this expedience, a lot of people are quite willing to deal with initial conflicts on this level-usually, they'll have at least someone, if not a couple someones, who can very handily beat someone up and toss them in a dumpster. It solves the problems and still leaves people ready to see their aunt for Thanksgiving, give or take a few teeth.

    Lethal Damage-It's a Classic "Your Friend or Me" Situation Until It Turns Out To Be a Weird Way To Ask Someone Out
    The province of sword fights, knife fights, and other sharp pointy object fights, it might be mildly disarming for you to hear that the actual goal of Lethal is to not kill someone, but here we are. Filling up someone's health bar with Lethal doesn't kill them, it renders them bleeding out over the course of minutes (and probably unconcious). Now, if someone wants to kill them, they can double-tap that mother fucker, but assuming we're still in a realm of professional fighting, the more advantageous position with long term benefits is to leave them bleeding out and force the opposition to make a choice to either chase after them or to otherwise do something about their friend/comrade/ally/whatever. A Particularly devious or even compassionate enemy might even, sufficiently away, leave behind a quick heal toy of some sort behind to further make the point to anyone who thinks going after them is really the better idea for bingo night. THe main reason this is effective is that any sane and defensively minded team is going to want one person doing the recovery and one person guarding both the healer and healee, and anyone taking a versimilitudinous cue from emergency medics would want to two people working on the healee, and one to two people defending. Depending on which you go with and the size of your play group (and reasonably the size of groups doing the same sort of shit your player groups), that's anywhere from your entire party to at best half of it. Of course, it could just be one person doing the healing, but if yer devious or want to otherwise actually kill them, some creative looping makes that a two for one deal easy. If you'd like to keep the hostilities down, sure, some people will be mad at you for nearly killing them, but it's not like you actually did, and you definitely could have if you wanted to (even if you're lying through your teeth as you say that), and and considering the alternatives, this is a good way of saying you don't quite want someone dead, but they're starting to get on your nerves, or that you wouldn't mind leaving their life to chance rather than your own hands at this point. But wait, sharp pointy objects? what about

    Lethal Damage But With Guns This Time-There Were No Smiles
    The province of gun fights, gun duels, and gun accidents, you may be wondering why this is it's own category. Answer: of the four primary damage skills, Firearms is the only one that automatically ignores Defense, and since Defense is the primary stat most everything survives attacks with, combat that takes to removing it is a clear demarcation of intent. At this point, it's safe to say whoever is conflicting with each other wants someone dead. If you're following the narrative of escalation to this point, that's likely because you've been getting in each other's ways enough that the costs of letting each other live is cutting into the business of getting what you want. THere could be other factors that influence this level of "Don't fuck around", but whatever it is, it's Serious Business, the stakes are starting to really matter. Maybe if it's not rooted in the escalating violence between two continual opponents, after resolving those stakes, future conflicts can afford to drop down a peg or two, but for the most part, this is where things start to get concerning, that they might really really mean to kill you this time.. One thing that makes this the beginning of really, seriously trying to kill each other is that it becomes that much easier to do it-sure, you can get them bleeding out in a few actions, but by similiar token it's not as much additional work to get them to full aggravated. Worth noting that almost every gameline includes a power, Merit, or some other quirk that allows for Defense here, and that's a big deal, but it's also much rarer.

    Aggravated Damage-It's Like They're Personally, Finally, Trying to Tell You They Hate You
    The province of chainsaws, mystical horseshit, and fire (Even If It's Not That), aggravated Damage is both really available and really not available-in terms of mundane stuff, the most readily available source is the unwieldy and unfriendly chainsaw, and other mundane means are the province of wood chippers, junk crushers, cruise missiles, and nearly revealing that the all the Templars are part marshmallow. More usually, it's the province of magical bullshit, from banes to spells to whatever the form. Because the occult means to inflict aggravated usually have some symbolic importance to your character, and the mundane methods probably involve a lot of close proximity and up-close wrestling and struggling, there's no way of employing aggravated damage without things getting personal, and as the tier where completion means death, no, really, actually death this time, this means that the relationship between you and your opponent is that you're ready to personally, finally, kill each other. This is the realm of grievance, this is the realm of ending a curse that entered your life, this is "We are never, ever, ever getting back together" territory between people whose regular interactions are violence. If for any reason a fight does not end here, you can bet your ass that the next time they run into you, they will be trying to bring the same level of pain. This is Climax Of The Story shit.

    Tilts and Conditions-Summoning the End
    Tilts primarily, but on occasion Conditions, are primarily here to make it easier to reach the end of the row of whatever damage you are trying to escort your problem children to, but there is another aspect that must be given attention. That aspect is that by inflicting a Tilt, you actually rush the otherwise conventional end of the row up ahead of schedule. Simply put, having a -2 or -3 on all or most of you relevant actions can be as demoralizing and debilitating as getting a full rack of damage, so by inflicting a Tilt, you actually have a lot of leverage to try and convince a person to stand down and back off while you go win the stepping stone. Breaking someone's arm is not a small thing, and even if you can magically heal it, it's enough of a thing you may not want to distract from the combat to handle it. Breaking everyone's arms is an even better way of going about it. Remember, most of the time you're not out to kill someone, you're fighting someone because they're in the way of what you want. Tilts are a good way of hastening the end of a distraction and uncontrolled moment to the end and providing amiable lose conditions that beat the pants off of all the work that otherwise goes into killing someone in a fight.

    So with that, you can see how a narrative might emerge amongst a lot of the regulars of your setting, and of course you can easily imagine how playing with that basic expectation can go a long way in creating tension or surprise, how it can relate to someone being a threat, or possibly being more human than you expected. Point is, you now see the rough escalating narrative.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 02-07-2023, 04:14 PM.


    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

  • #2
    Part 3: How the Gamelines Play Around With Damage and What That Does To Your Game

    So now that we have the basic rough overarching narrative and sense of how escalation to stories is supposed to go, it pays to point out that each game tweaks that in a couple of ways. Sometimes, the game can make it a lot more slick, like in Demon, while in games like Hunter It's meant to feel meatier and more brutish. Sometimes the violence level is ramped up a lot, like in Werewolf, while games like Changeling really emphasize your ability to escape over the violence. We would be here all day if I tried to talk about it all, though, so after a basic top-down universal principle of the significance of damage to monsters, I'm mostly confining it to the way they interact with damage oddly and innately heal from it, with a few deviations to acknowledge particular elements that I probably can't otherwise get away without mentioning.

    The general overall principle to remember that violence, on the whole, does a lot to push monsters into and along the descent into monstrosity-and I'm not going to waste time here with a definition of what I mean by monstrosity and it's (non-)relationship to evil, you either already know where you can find that, or other people can point you at it. The general point that I want to lay out is that violence generally steepens the dive into monstrosity and away from humanity-which might sound obvious, so let me clarify a little bit. Obviously, the first point is that the more violent combat is (more inclined to deliberately and distinctly try to kill someone, for simple purposes), the more likely a Breaking Point (-alike) is to occur. The more subtle and insidious fact, though, is that very commonly, taking damage and taking care of it tends to lead to situation that passively divorce the character from humanity and normalize monstrosity, and is a soft source of Breaking Points. This should become clear the more specific we talk. So, with that said.

    Vampire: the Requiem
    This is a good one for just setting overall trends. The main overall benefit is that vampires downgrade every form of damage down by one unless otherwise noted. Shoot them, stab them, make them listen to the entire discography of John Mayer, it's all bashing baby. Chainsaw to the face, lethal at most. You also can't be knocked out, which is just primo. As a baseline for a bunch of institutionally corrupting people eaters, you couldn't ask better for coming back. Downside-you don't heal naturally at all. Every bit of healing you do is the consequence of biting some poor sod and taking a gulp, with anything not addressed by the time you got take a nappy being automatically drawn out of your Vitae pool, and if you can't draw Vitae, you're in torpor(which also happens if you fill up Lethal somehow, which admittedly is great possuming and not much else). None of this even addresses any stocking up for shit the next night. THe more damage you and have and the more serious your shit is, the more likely you're gonna kill someone, and even if you don't kill anyone, you're absolutely going to ruin a lot of days. You want Kindred as plague monsters, just fucking getting into fights. The alternative is losing time, all those years, and all your investments into a comfortable undeath.

    Werewolf: the Forsaken
    All right kids, here’s the big one, the one that everyone trips on, the one that I can argue is the reason I wrote this thing. I’ve heard everything from werewolf healing being underpowered to Gauru being an instant win button. Hopefully at this point of the discussion, you might start having more of a sense of how it’s more in the middle than that, but let me get exactly into it.

    A thing of note, before getting into the healing itself and their related factors, is a notion of time, namely the subject of turns. Chronicles kind of uses this in a bit of a confusing way, where in turn describes both the individual bit of a character’s action, but it also describes what other games would usually call a round. The main reason this matters is because since the most extreme elements of a werewolf’s healing is rooted in the turn by turn rate, it’s important we understand that a werewolf heals when they and everyone else involved has acted, and not every time someone does something. A turn is everyone acting in the same three seconds, not each person doing a thing in their separate segment of three seconds.

    Anyways, a werewolf has a bevy of healing and damage adjustments. Werewolves heal anywhere from one to six bashing damage per turn, a lethal damage every 15 minute, and aggravated damage every four days-and on top of that, mundane things that do aggravated to normal humans only deals lethal to werewolves unless specified. As if that’s not enough, werewolves can spend a point of essence to heal lethal like they do bashing. And finally, Gauru heals all bashing and lethal at the start of the turn (notably, this means at the highest initiative and not on the werewolf’s, which is a factor to keep in mind for when we come back around to it). That’s a lot, and I hope I’ll be forgiven for skipping tilts and poison to get straight into it. For our purposes, we mostly wanna go over the regular bashing regeneration, the Essence overdriving, and Gauru.

    The regular bashing healing is the area where most people argue it’s underpowered, but keep in mind that Chronicles combat is interested in not prolonging any combat, relying on overwhelming force for action and otherwise trying to get out of the fight, and most people not having the investment in killing most everyone on just a bare minimum. Add in the werewolves operational interest in working like hunters and favoring skirmishing and harrying tactics, and what you get is scenarios rush in on people who are mostly unaware or otherwise unprepared, making as much of a mess as they can and ideally inflicting Tilts, and then scampering off to heal up before going back into it, and that bashing begins to mean a lot. Werewolves try to catch people flat-footed, and given that it can take a turn to pull a weapon, versus the choice of punching a wolf in the face (or the even wiser action of running the hell away because jesus christ, that’s a fucking wolf[/thin]), the rounds they operate in are usually bashing heavy on their opponents part if done right. Even sub-optimal situations, so long as the pack is trying to be smart about their fights, there’s gonna be some people who aren’t going to be able to whip out lethal on the first round, and those people are ideally the ones the werewolves are trying to get off the board with each harrying. Going the other way, remember that while that bashing regen is good for individual fights, it’s less effective as more people who go wading into a succession of blows every round. It’s incredibly power when you play to the principles, but becomes less impressive if you try for a stand and deliver method of combat.

    Switching over to the lethal overdrive, it pays to remember that essence is a precious resource, and somewhat limited one for lower powered werewolves. Every inch of healing done by the essence overdrive is eseence that has to be restored, and that means spending more time at Loci, hunting spirits, and generally abiding in the Shadow. The more a werewolf relies on this, the further they pull away from the Flesh by sheer logistics, and it compounds by letting a werewolf get over reliant on thinking about the world in the spirits do. However powerful it can be to disappear damage in a turn, it’s important to remember that it’s an emergency get out of trouble card more.

    Finally, Gauru. That complete damage erasure is very powerful for the turns you can access it-the entire form is very potent, with improved defenses on top of that regeneration, increased accuracy from stat boosts, and a likely base 3 Lethal damage rolled at any time (The +2 for their claws and teeth, and the fact that +3 Strength almost guarantees at least one success) means that Gauru can get someone to bleeding out in two turns reliably(nevermind getting to down and dirty kill a lot of people). That said, it’s not a win button unless the situation is carefully controlled. The time limit is the most obvious weakness, but the bigger issue is Rage. Most people are going to recognize Gauru as the overpowered problem that it is and try to get away even without knowing the details, and that’s going to involve scattering. The limitations of either throwing things at people or running up and spilling their guts means that unless the opposition is very well corralled, the werewolf is going to do a lot of running around and not getting results, particularly since a lot of the options for empowering a werewolf encourages getting into your enemies face.Enemies who know more, or have enough coordination with self and others, might also flip that script around to attack, spreading out, surrounding, and laying in as much heavy damage from range as possible, each attack dropping the defense more and more. If someone plays attrition with them, very carefully kiting them along while keeping up the hammering, the accumulation of that damage can very easily roll over into aggravated and build up.In most situations, the use of Gauru is lot of energy for little results, and only really becomes the unstoppable option players like to claim it as when the opposition has been worn down and herded into the killing grounds of the players choosing. It’s the killing form, and you don’t always need to kill a bitch.

    Mage: the Awakening
    On thinking in advance to Mage, you might have dismissively said ‘Well they take damage the same as any other human, maybe there will be some discussion about spells and attainments.” If you had, I wouldn’t have blamed you, I also completely forgot about pattern restoration, a built-in feature to all Mages that let’s them heal a point of bashing or lethal or a physical or mental condition with 3 Mana. While that’s not going to light the world on fire or otherwise change a wizard’s squishiness at low power, combine it with some judicious use of pattern scouring and it often does mean that wizards can juggle the consequences of combat around, and thus have a lot more freedom in activity after any combat they’re able to walk away from, and moderately powerful mages are much tougher than you’d expect. Of course, one can only pattern scour so much and otherwise juggle their damage around, and Mana is one of the scarcer resources in the world of Chronicles. A mage can always hang around and heal up normally (including medical attention), but as a general rule, healing up and restoring in quick time involves staying estranged from normal humanity and hanging around people who only understand power, committing to estranging rituals with normal humanity, or at it’s most extreme committing to sacrificing.

    It should also be noted that it’s literally impossible to build a character in Mage who will not have access to a Mage Armor Attainment (even the Newly Awakened Template from Signs of Sorcery has one of your Ruling Arcana at 2). Raising it is a reflexive action, which means you can call it up even in uncontrolled situations. The way a mage is going to relate to damage is primarily going to relate to the armor they have (as a broad examination, four of them improve defense, two of them apply armor, two of them downgrade damage, Life gives both defense and armor, and Prime is armor against explicitly magical attacks), but as a general rule, the combination of always having armor and having pattern restoration creates a subtle divide from humans-they aren’t quite as subject to the trauma of combat as humans do, but because the returns are initially so small, they’re inclined to think of themselves as still being such, and thus can lead to a warped perspective on the consequences of combat for Sleepers and Sleepwalkers.

    Spells need to be mentioned, but it’s such a broad subject that all I’ll say is that there’s any number of ways to help avoid or mitigate taking damage or to minimize and control any damage taken that you can usually create a buffer to consider, and most mages probably have a few praxes or rote “get out of trouble” spells on hand after some time of being a mage. This contributes to the problem.

    Promethean: the Created
    The good news is that anything below aggravated damage doesn’t mean anything to a Promethean. The entire narrative track of the damages falls apart with Prometheans, because they don’t go unconscious, they don’t bleed out, and they don’t have wound penalties. Tilits still register, but Prometheans will terrify most people trying to fight them because it takes so much to meaningfully damage them. To make matters worse, Prometheans can spend Pyros to ignore points of any kind of damage(at different rates) as it’s taken or heal it after the fact, meaning a well-stocked Promethean can take the narrative escalation of damage and do anything from treat it as a mild suggestion to just flat out ignoring it, depending on how powerful their Azoth is. And as a cherry on the top, not only can they come back to life once (provided their body isn’t completely obliterated), you are even encouraged to do so once as part of the Pilgrimage. Now the general downside to this is that pretty much all of it can act as a trigger for Disquiet, and with the pot of trouble increasingly boiling as you get through combat, it can become hard to take the time to heal up normally and instead rely on electroshock therapy, which of course reveals your Disfigurements. To make all of that worse, the electrification method also disrupts the systems where the Promethean is charging up, and can even cause it to break down and black out, which will get investigated–a one-two punch that risks a major spiral into Disquiet, Torment, and eventually Wasteland if it gets bad enough. The act of healing risks throwing the Promethean into a major distraction from their Pilgramage, and can even spiral into walking them back if they have to rely on their powers to get out of the mess that can potentially start. Sure, throwing out the escalation of damage is an option for them, but doing so is going to cost them In this way, it’s important to regard combats not a threat to life, but a threat to Pilgrimage. The smaller the conflict, the smaller the risk.

    Oh, and any aggravated damage also automatically inflicts a Tilt, so that end of the narrative is a very brief candle situation, don’t play with fire, kids.

    Changeling: the Lost
    Time for a change of pace-changelings have no inherent means of preventing, downgrading, or healing damage, not even by virtue of technicality by eating any Goblin Fruits-they either need the right Contracts, know someone with the right Contracts, need to get the right kind of Goblin Fruit, or otherwise recover like a human. That’s a problem, because there’s a lot things in the fairy world with a heightened ability to inflict harm them, and a good number of reasons to do (even as they a good number of reason not to as well). Of particular note, though, is portalling. Make enough of a door for them to work with, any changeling not running on empty has got an out to the situation. Since human cities tend to be lousy with doors, this tends to be most useful for escaping into the Hedge, a bit like jumping out of the frying pan into a somewhat conversational fire. It’ll usually take more work to make a door in the Hedge if one doesn’t have the luck of coming out into a community of some sort (which is not the norm), and the longer one is in the Hedge, the more opportunity is has to mess with their heart and head, get caught in debt or pledge, get caught or run the risk of being eaten. Nevertheless, the ease of flight, the easy access to Pledges as a bargaining tool, and their general vulnerability makes it clear changelings should rely escape and negotiation more than combat unless they know they can take the opposition.

    Hunter: the Vigil
    If you played this game as intended for any extended length of time, you probably don’t need this entire blooming thing because this is all old hat and the way things are for you, and indeed I would call this entire project a love letter to the first Chronicles game I ever ran, being a year long Hunter game. You also probably aren’t expecting a whole lot out of this given that hunters are actually humans and so everything I listed should apply as normal, and the instance I mention Tactics, you’re probably going “Okay Arc, we get your point, shut up already”, but hold on a second them, my dear friend, because there is an innate feature to hunters that merits discussing how it affects combat. See, I haven’t really talked about Willpower (Even though I probably should, but I’m not going to because it’s gonna be used in a different essay) because everyone has it, and therefore it’s not an innate template feature, which is the parameter of this section. However, Hunters have Risking Willpower, which, while it explicitly prohibits being used on actions that preserve the hunter’s health and safety, does make it so that hunter hunting is a Willpower generating machine who can afford to spend Willpower on things like dodging or resisting powers, which does help to mitigate damage, and can be done because a hunter can desperately risk it and build it back up. Because of that though, hunter’s employment of desperation in their activity just highlights that violence has more costs than physical, since this abundance of Willpower can mean that when a hunter does get into fight, they do it with abandon, and as such are very likely to get a lot of injuries asides. THere’s only so many times you can try and explain that away to friends, family, and employers before it begins to have a negative effect on them, and even before they start actively trying to interfere with their business. LIkewise, one will not always score while risking Willpower, and a reliance on it can lead to several instances where the hunter while have to make excessive use of their vice or become more driven to fulfill their Virtue, which compacts those issues further. As a final note, I want to highlight the contrast we just put up-controlled and well executed actions that are often done after coordinated research and preparation against an extended desperate gamble to resist and avoid taking damage.

    Some narratives tell themselves.

    Geist: the Sin-Eaters
    There’s something inherently hilarious about the fact that a powerful enough Sin-Eater loaded with Plasm could swallow a bomb and survive but still doesn’t particularly have any way of healing bashing damage. With that said, Sin-Eaters can spend Plasm to downgrade damage reflexively down a step, down to bashing, and can negate tilts on similar principles. Similar to Prometheans, damage type doesn’t really mean anything to them either, because they can’t go unconscious or suffer bleedout, though they do still suffer wound penalties. And of course, killing them is not a permanent solution, because the Fog Men just get up a scene later. But before we get it into our head that Sin-Eaters are basically death powered Prometheans, It pays to remember that all of those (except the reviving, that’s its’ own thing) are bought with Plasm, and in the scarcity driven world of Geist, that makes survivability a lot scarier of a proposition. Even if a Sin-eater be pure of heart and does regular Ceremonies by night may still be starved when the battles seem bright(as an idea, anyways), and while Keys can provide a quick fix, they also exacerbate and agitate the problem by inviting more damage with their Dooms, and thus make for more healing. Dealing with the damage can counter-intuitively call for a trip to the Underworld and robbing the starving dead of their food, or, even worse, get a Sin-Eater to compromise on their principles as the ghosts around them start to look more and more like Timothy sandwiches. That particular affront to Synergy is heavily problematic, because reviving also costs Synergy, and enough of that problem will get a Geist willing to cut the deal short as opposed to working with a psychopath. Death is a greedy horseman, and while it’s tempting to imagine Sin-Eaters being free to use combat more readily as an answer, unless the Sin-Eater has saved up for the feast, engaging in war is more likely to result in famine in a world already plagued with too many mouths and not enough to go around.

    Mummy: the Curse
    If there’s a game that breaks this entire argument, it’s Mummy the Curse. Not only do they basically get just about every form of damage management (downgrade lethal to bashing, no going unconscious or bleeding out, the second best regeneration only after werewolves, Sealing the Flesh making that even better and allowing the Mummy time to act even when the death requirement is met, resurrection at the low cost of a point of Sekhem and time, options for revival if their body is completely destroyed), the fact that the Arisen operate on a timer incentivizes them to cut through a lot of crap. Slow and methodical conflict management is the province of the cult–mummies are here for a reason, and they need to get that done sooner than later. no other splat has anywhere near the need to resolve things with violence as the Arisen. But it’s the time that’s at risk of loss where in Memory and humanity lie, and while the Arisen needs to move things along, the cult very frequently still needs the board game to look mostly the same after the Arisen returns to their tomb. Eventually, the raw power of the mummy wanes, and they need to start playing more to the principles to make better use of their resources, and in that time they may get to see more of themselves, more to their enemies, and more to the Judges. In fact, eventually taking their time and consideration can become an empowering act, a means reclaiming self from the Judges. While the practical concerns of combat don’t readily apply to the Arisen, combat as an easy answer remains a temptation, one the Judges want their servants to fall for.

    Demon: the Descent
    Demons, most of the time, heal like humans do-which, to be fair, is effective. It'd be a bit of a red flag for a human to heal in some kind of abnormal way. That said, a demon has an option to quickly take care of their bashing and lethal damage, or at least at a rate of their Primum per turn. It is, of course, risking Cover by dropping into full demonic form. That can be a useful tool when the demon is dealing with damage that might otherwise ping multiple risks to their Covers after the fight is done and the Unchained has gotten their way to a secure and private location, so long as they don't keep doing it at the same private, secure location again and again. In combat, though, it forms one of those moments where the costs of bringing the angels and other scrutinizers in must be weighed against the increased survivability and power brought to bear against them. In an ideal situation, using the demonic form is part of the surgical strike that leads an ambush, taking it for as minimal time as possible and exercising violence as swiftly and efficiently as possible. As an emergency response, it risks compounding the problem for the value of increasing the chance to escape.

    One thing that does bear mention is the notion that Demon is extra lethal because of the unflappability of angels (well, mostly). While it’s true that angels will be dangerously coordinated, tactical, and unyielding, it’s worth noting that compromising with them is still doable. Most angels do not have fighting and killing demons as their main mission, and a demon can leverage that to control the situation and slowly work up an advantage. Only in the case of the hunter angels does everything fall apart-and they usually have the overwhelming advantage.

    Beast: the Primordial
    Beasts are generally tightly controlled loops of juxtaposing forces and themes, their primary weakness being when they stall out at any one of those particular points. Beasts can heal exceptionally in their Lair, able to knock out all bashing, three lethal, and one aggravated damage per Satiety spent on the subject. The juxtaposition of needing to heal where they are at their strongest pushing them closer to their weakness is hilarious. Any fight turns into an invitation to follow into their Lair, and to take against the Begotten as they dive into hungrier and hungrier forms. If the Beast survives these arguments, they have to indulge their monstrosity to get back up to strength. But then again, so much of this not only par for the course, but possibly even better for them as regards their adversity. In their Lair, the forces of it’s nature ravage opposition, and the Horror of the Beast is stronger at home then it is anywhere else. The hunger from healing strengthens Atavisms, already easy to empower from the resonance with the lair. All of this makes opposition that follows pretty easy targets for satiation. But for all of that, that just means that the outcomes of combat are high risk high rewards affairs, not a reason to revel in the violence. The Lair is a fleshy organ, and Beasts relying on the power they get from being in there are just begging to have their arms and legs chopped off, metaphorically. The Beasts who survive are the ones who play the gamble after stacking the deck, and only open their heart to those who will get devoured by it.

    Deviant: the Renegades
    It will not surprise you to learn that Deviants are in the “No Innate Relationship to Deviances (heh) with Damage” club. Deviants are, as a default, as vulnerable to the consequences of damage as anyone else. On the plus side, there's nothing about damage inherently messes with Deviant's Instability either. Still, combat is noisy, messy, and out of the ordinary, and that's a good way for Conspiracies to get a lead on Renegades and tail them down. This can become something of a vicious cycle if it's not carefully handled right, since every fight builds on top of one another and only makes it more obvious where the deviants are. Compounding this is the fact that Deviants do need to, on occasion, go and start shit with their Conviction Touchstones. This need to go on the offensive while they're getting chased down makes it all the more neccesary that a Deviant does what they can to tilt things in their favor rather than just diving straight into a fight all the time.

    Part 4: Combat Archetypes and Their Relationship to Chronicles

    Okay, so it’s all well and good to take a general look for everyone, but not all people are like each other, and that applies to characters, and that applies while thinking of combat in particular. Some characters seem to have an orthogonal to these principles, and it can be tempting to be like “Well yeah, that may be true for your namby pamby school teacher engaged with a ghost, but this all falls apart against my career infantry werewolf man.” In some cases, it can even seem you have to avoid them to even make sense of a character you want to play. But I promise you, with a little thought and application, those exceptions are not as exceptional as you think. While there are potentially a lot of archetypes that might seem to bristle against this, I’m gonna do you a favor and do the thinking for four of them and answer some of those questions you have.

    The Hitter
    While the MMO Roles are alive and well in Chronicles, Chronicles is in those games where your role in combat is probably not your major definer, instead leaning more on the problems your group deals with on the whole, with combat only being a corner of the map. That’s not the Hitter’s problem-or rather, it’s the whole of their problem.While every character probably has some points in a fighting skill, Hitter’s are built around fighting on the whole, probably having multiple points in the fighting skills and merits, even including Martial Arts. It can seem obscene to suggest that these sort of characters should basically try avoiding getting into fights, because fighting is their entire thing, the whole of their appeal.

    But the thing of the matter is that these characters, within the context of Chronicles, probably came to be the Hitter by judicious application of the principles. As we’ve established, fights are risky affairs with uncertain costs, and Hitters probably got to be so good with fighting because they got practiced with controlling other factors and getting the experience with being the fighter from only the smallest of slips. These principles are likely to be theirs most of any characters, because they understand that it’s not about having the fight, it’s surviving and getting the win.

    This also helps scenario design. Fights are much more meaningful and weighty when they effectively has to be earned, and the more stakeworthy fights means that the Hitter’s skills are that more valuable. It not like the Hitter’s skills also confine them to only a small portion of the chronicle, either. The Hitter’s presence is a powerful social tool that incentivizes compromise and opponents trying to control the player group’s placement carefully, and that can be played in lot of ways. They become the big stick the rest of the group’s soft speaking, their violence terrain opponents must account for as they set up all their positioning against the players. So yeah, the Hitter’s definitely still interest in the principles of this essay.

    The Goku
    Okay, but what if your character concept is that the character in question really likes getting into fights, for whom combat is a form of socialization and stress relief, who feels alive trading blows? Would I really say Goku is a character who could, would, and should follow the ideas we’ve put in here, as an example? And the answer to that is “Yes.” But it’s also “Context.”

    I would be tempted to say the Goku is a character archetype that doesn’t work in Chronicle’s context, but that would be untrue. Lots of games have a lot of violence that would work really well with the idea, from the Arcane Duel to the duels of the fae to minor fights for dominance among werewolves, lots of scenarios where a character who loves the fight for the fight could exist in. But the particulars of that are all of the contexts. Not only does a character like this probably operate in the spaces designated for it, but they probably aren’t even combat in the way we normally think of them, even going so far as to not use the Combat system. While knocking out your opponent in a boxing match will win you the game, it’s generally encouraged that you don’t do that out of concern for both boxers health and wholeness, and a lot of these other spaces that work for a love-of-fighting characters have similar understanding, and so could be presented as social rolls, chases, extended and contested actions, etc.

    But the biggest part about them is that they rely on other forces, often social ones, to make this viable. Most Gokus are not out to kill others arbitrarily (we’ll talk about the archetype that does in a bit), whether out of morality or honor or playfulness or whatever the reason. Notably, these characters often have a change of attitude when someone takes fights out of the realm of social contract, acknowledged or assumed, and when fights get serious, it’s very easy to see how a Goku will fall back on these ideas. Even if the Goku really likes fighting, at the end of the day, most of the violence done in Chronicles is there to serve an agenda, and the Goku will understand there’s a time and a place for these things, even as they try get more people on board with their take on these matters.

    The Sadist
    Okay, but what if the character is one who just revels in bloodshed, in the fear and pain and power that comes from battle, what if the Character is not just a Hitter or Goku who gets a kick out of the pain of others, but is a full blown Sadist? Surely they’re not going to play with these ideas nicely, right?

    Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but these characters, more often than not, don’t like combat either. At most, they revel in Down and Dirty Combat. See, the thing about these characters is that when they say they love the sound of people crying and the sight of blood flowing, what they’re saying is that they enjoy the power that they have over others and in their emotional reaction to their powerlessness. They might take pleasure in bringing down a person proud and “strong” in their combative prowess, but the more it goes from hurting and killing another person and turns more into a proper fight, the unhappier they become. In turn, they’re more likely to leave, come up with a way to stick it to the victim, and come back when’re sure of having all the more power over them. So, yeah, I think the Sadist would absolutely go along with our ideas here when and where it matters. Someone else who is a big fighter and a sadist might enjoy the damage they cause, but in their case, they’re more likely to be motivated by the big picture and consider the sadistic joy they get as a perk, and still go along with it.

    The Suicidal
    Okay, but all of these ideas are rooted in an idea of prizing survivability, so what happens when the character has no regard for their own life, who may even be out to seek their own death? Would the Suicidal really still care about any of this?

    Well, the general principle is that the Suicidal still wants to get something done with their death. They might be okay with not achieving that goal if they die in the process, but in general, while they might have a shortcutted vision of what things like overwhelming force may look like, they’re still going to try and play things with the end goal of doing whatever it is they hope to do with their death. It may be that a character wants to die but just simply doesn’t have it in them to kill themselves, but I would argue that character is probably more looking for help than actual death, and so even if they seem to defy the ideas in this essay, there’s going to more adherence as they try to make sense of their lives and what can be done with it. So yeah, even being very ready to die, I would still argue this character’s going to act in adherence with these.

    The Final Context of Combat in Chronicles

    I mentioned at the start of this that one of the big reasons I think I see threads that struggle with combat in Chronicles is because they often come at Chronicles with the context of other games, and having gone through this, I can think of one really good example of where the assumptions of the game perhaps struggles-what about a one shot game? That question reveals a lot about the way that Chronicles thinks about games, even if in practice it’s not that hard to have a short adventure and still have it be really impactful. Chronicles is at it’s best with combat when it’s thing that escalates with time, that understands fights and violence as having consequences long beyond just simply marking boxes to show how close to death you are, that these actions have an impact on a person’s sense of self, the fact that they have people to be accountable to, the way that violence can alienate and dehumanize the people committing it.

    I don’t have any particular illusions that this essay will stop any of the problems people have with elements of the game–at the time of this writing, a thread about whether or not the Gauru form is too strong has revived as people come back to the forums, and while I expect this to get mentioned there, I don’t think it’ll objectively close it. Despite all of that, though, I do hope that this can help a lot of conversations in future be, at the least, a little more directed as some of the basics are cleaned up.​
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 04-02-2023, 03:08 PM.


    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • #3
      EDIT: Let's call this post the "Edits to the make" post.

      On that subject, need to rewrite Demon on remembering Demonic Form DOES has innate healing.
      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 03-07-2023, 06:05 PM.


      Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Feminine pronouns, please.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        A note in advance: apparently Prommies can heal naturally. I'll fix that section up later when I verify that fact.
        they can? totally forgot that

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          they can? totally forgot that
          The Imperatus Alembic's Persistent effect of reducing healing times wouldn't make much sense otherwise, and while the 2e corebook's got a section titled "Mortal Healing" it doesn't replicate Vampire's equivalent section's note that the Kindred don't heal over time.

          Prometheans aren't like vampires, who magically restore themselves to their pre-Embrace state through the power of Vitae — they eat and breathe and have some semblance of fluids running through their veins; they're explicitly alive, and they heal like living beings.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            The Imperatus Alembic's Persistent effect of reducing healing times wouldn't make much sense otherwise, and while the 2e corebook's got a section titled "Mortal Healing" it doesn't replicate Vampire's equivalent section's note that the Kindred don't heal over time.

            Prometheans aren't like vampires, who magically restore themselves to their pre-Embrace state through the power of Vitae — they eat and breathe and have some semblance of fluids running through their veins; they're explicitly alive, and they heal like living beings.
            Yeah,that does make sense.

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            • #7
              In second edition Changeling, generic goblin fruit typically restore a point of Glamour by default -- healing damage was the generic effect for 1e Goblin Fruits. There's nothing stopping you from mix-and-matching the types, but that does mean it can be an adventure to find the healing kind of fruits in themselves.


              When the cat's a Stray, the mice will pray...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheStray7 View Post
                In second edition Changeling, generic goblin fruit typically restore a point of Glamour by default -- healing damage was the generic effect for 1e Goblin Fruits. There's nothing stopping you from mix-and-matching the types, but that does mean it can be an adventure to find the healing kind of fruits in themselves.
                Shockingly, I mentioned that, yes.


                Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Feminine pronouns, please.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post

                  Shockingly, I mentioned that, yes.

                  Time for a change of pace-changelings have no inherent means of preventing, downgrading, or healing damage, not even by virtue of technicality by eating any Goblin Fruits in the second edition(I may be misremembering first edition too, it has been a bit)-they either need the right Contracts, know someone with the right Contracts, need to get the right kind of Goblin Fruit, or otherwise recover like a human. That’s a problem, because there’s a lot things in the fairy world with a heightened ability to inflict harm them, and a good number of reasons to do (even as they a good number of reason not to as well). Of particular note, though, is portalling. Make enough of a door for them to work with, any changeling not running on empty has got an out to the situation. Since human cities tend to be lousy with doors, this tends to be most useful for escaping into the Hedge, a bit like jumping out of the frying pan into a somewhat conversational fire. It’ll usually take more work to make a door in the Hedge if one doesn’t have the luck of coming out into a community of some sort (which is not the norm), and the longer one is in the Hedge, the more opportunity is has to mess with their heart and head, get caught in debt or pledge, get caught or run the risk of being eaten. Nevertheless, the ease of flight, the easy access to Pledges as a bargaining tool, and their general vulnerability makes it clear changelings should rely escape and negotiation more than combat unless they know they can take the opposition.
                  I'm pointing out that RAW, Goblin Fruits in 2e don't provide healing unless the ST adds them to the game. This is pretty important, since there's a whole Merit devoted to having access to a cache of Goblin Fruits each Chapter in 2e that wasn't in 1e. There's also a Merit in both editions that doubles healing time while in The Hedge, but it doesn't rely on access to Goblin Fruits to function. It doesn't affect your argument much, but it DOES mean that 2e Changelings are even more fragile than their 1e counterparts, simply because the healing fruits aren't a given like they were in 1e.

                  This is, admittedly, a pedantic technicality, and you DID mention you might be misremembering. But this sort of thing is important to me personally, since I'm actively running a Changeling-based game and this is something that's come up from the players who had played 1e but not 2e.


                  When the cat's a Stray, the mice will pray...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TheStray7 View Post
                    I'm pointing out that RAW, Goblin Fruits in 2e don't provide healing unless the ST adds them to the game.
                    They didn't in 1e either; 1e just made the note that regardless of the season there tends to be at least one variety of goblin fruit that can be found that's less rare and less efficacious than an amaranthine, whether it's blushberries, dream-a-drupe-murmurleaf, ertwen, or something else. Those varieties aren't prevented from existing just because there isn't an unattached note about them in the section on goblin fruits in 2e.

                    This is pretty important, since there's a whole Merit devoted to having access to a cache of Goblin Fruits each Chapter in 2e that wasn't in 1e.
                    Goblin Bounty didn't exist in 1e because 1e subdivided Harvest into categories that included Hedge Bounty instead of having Fair Harvest as a specifically emotional-harvest-boosting Merit and stating outright that generic goblin fruits provide Glamour.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                    • #11
                      The use of the different damage types as a narrative device to escalate the level of conflict along with the narrative and the stakes is something I'll definitely have to make use of in the future. I really appreciate that tip.

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                      My Project to convert Chronicles of Darkness to a data-driven Combined Arms Simulation: Gods of Iron
                      My personal website, projects and games: https://puckerfactorgames.com

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jester-PFG View Post
                        The use of the different damage types as a narrative device to escalate the level of conflict along with the narrative and the stakes is something I'll definitely have to make use of in the future. I really appreciate that tip.

                        Subscribed!
                        It's one of those things I definitely don't think gets enough appreciation, particularly as the subject of recurring antagonists and sudden threats go. A lot of the major factions* of the games may hate each others guts, but the unspoken social contract between them means that the kettle has to bubble and boil a long time before it goes over, because you need to have some legitimate grievances in order to earn murder, and with that a lot of other forms of conflict open up and allow for dynamics. It also makes the lone threat that's likely to express themselves through murder stand out all the more as a disruption to everything.

                        Or, as I put it to my Hunter group, slashers are only a big deal in a setting where murder isn't the answer to every problem.


                        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Feminine pronouns, please.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post

                          It's one of those things I definitely don't think gets enough appreciation, particularly as the subject of recurring antagonists and sudden threats go. A lot of the major factions* of the games may hate each others guts, but the unspoken social contract between them means that the kettle has to bubble and boil a long time before it goes over, because you need to have some legitimate grievances in order to earn murder, and with that a lot of other forms of conflict open up and allow for dynamics. It also makes the lone threat that's likely to express themselves through murder stand out all the more as a disruption to everything.

                          Or, as I put it to my Hunter group, slashers are only a big deal in a setting where murder isn't the answer to every problem.
                          In retrospect, I think now that if I'd known more about starting at the level of "bare fists" first, and slowly increasing the stakes to weapons, then to guns, and then cap it off by reserving things like banes, supernatural powers, and Cold Iron or Silver bullets as something of a cherry on the top, my own campaign might have turned out very differently. My players and I discussed character creation together and decided by consensus that we would pick up a lot of lethal combinations of merits, powers, and equipment when we built our characters so we could have a cast of powerful, combat-ready characters set and ready at the start. Then we went to war.

                          I don't for one second regret it, because I desperately wanted to, it was something we chose for ourselves, we're having fun, and we have a very good consensus as a group, but I didn't quite pick up on that things like doing aggravated damage and using banes was supposed to be a conclusion to the game, not the start of it, and one that's supposed to be reached at the pace of plotting and narrative, rather than the traditional process of "get XP and level up to unlock the cool stuff."

                          I'm now very invested in this system, so I think when I do get my next game going I'll have to figure out some way of providing some means of not exactly setting, but finding some way to keep track of the pace. I think I might look into doing something like establishing Rules of Engagement or a "Defense Ready Condition" Level or a "Doomsday Clock" which we can set to indicate where the situation stands, to help my players gauge escalation of force and provide some kind of a way to track to measure progress and use as a reference when making decisions.


                          My Project to convert Chronicles of Darkness to a data-driven Combined Arms Simulation: Gods of Iron
                          My personal website, projects and games: https://puckerfactorgames.com

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                          • #14
                            One of the main struggles I think people have with Chronicles when it comes to combat and violence narratives is that it hews colder than is easily assumed or desired by the average player group, where a lot of people go for heavier and more brutal horror power expressions, or even a Scarface sort of approach to the game's criminal underground general vibe of operation. And to be fair, hot, heavy, and fast combat does have it's place, even in the opening of the narrative or a sudden disruption to the sort of "gentlemen gangsters" tension. The funny thing about it all is by understanding and respecting the typical escalation of the narrative, it's easier to make deviations away from that model work all the more effectively-when you understand Chronicles violence and combat scenes as means more than ends, and more importantly as something that has social and structural consequences (and, in excess, has personal consequences one's psychological and sometimes metaphysical state), it becomes equally easy to see how tweaking those assumptions can be used to punch expectations and ratchet horror in a couple of different ways.

                            I might take some time to address de-escalation and deviations later on.


                            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                              Part 3: How the Gamelines Play Around With Damage and What That Does To Your Game


                              Geist: the Sin-Eaters
                              There’s something inherently hilarious about the fact that a powerful enough Sin-Eater loaded with Plasm could swallow a bomb and survive but still doesn’t particularly have any way of healing bashing damage. ​
                              Well, I've been getting that wrong for 3ish years lol TIL

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