Let's Talk about Combat in Chronicles of Darkness

[ArcaneArts]

Well, I've been getting that wrong for 3ish years lol TIL

I got a laugh out of how wrong I was previously on it.

[PinkHaunt]

Took me a while to read through all of this but WOW I love this and even though I've been playing Chronicles for a good while now, this sumamrized a lot of topics I needed to be remebered and organized! This is a great post! Thank you!

[ArcaneArts]

Not gonna lie, I expected this thread to be a lot more controversial.

[Heavy Arms]

I find it a good thing even if I post less in the CofD forums because a lot of stuff just... is cool to read, take in, and move on.

Makes me kinda wish we could get a CofD version of Crucible of Legends for Exalted that can take some time to really get into various topics from a broader perspective than the individual game core books (even the blue book that has to cover mortal-play and can't get into cross game considerations as much).

[ArcaneArts]

I find it a good thing even if I post less in the CofD forums because a lot of stuff just... is cool to read, take in, and move on.

Makes me kinda wish we could get a CofD version of Crucible of Legends for Exalted that can take some time to really get into various topics from a broader perspective than the individual game core books (even the blue book that has to cover mortal-play and can't get into cross game considerations as much).

If I ever get the impression Paradox is taking Chronicles pitches, I will throw that right in.

[ArcaneArts]

Adding to De-escalation and deviations as possible topics if I ever do more, the general role of the three tiers of characters in combat situations.

[maryshelly]

This is an excellent post! Thank you for making it. It addressed many issues about combat in the Chronicles of darkness, especially the thorny issues regarding Werewolf fights. Here are some concepts you highlighted very well

1/ Ambushing a Werewolf in human form is probably the most efficient way to take them out. A werewolf probably spends the majority of time in their human, or wolf forms, so hitting them when their health track is lowest and without defence will probably work. We get hung up on their awesome Garou form, but forget that their human form is quite mundane ( unlike a Vampire or Promethean which is quite tough). The trouble is that if you don't kill it immediately it will transform and heal.

2/ Fleeing from Garou is a good way to neutralize it. The dodging rules effectively double defence and armor can neutralize the damage from claws. Many dread powers such as wall crawling, burrow, or air elemental can provide an escape, and spirits can use gauntlet breach to get away. You were correct that garou form really only works when the prey was effectively cornered.

3/ Fighting is only a last resort. A vampire can dominate a Uratha to get what he wants without causing a mess

4/ Humans are a great resource. Vampires can dominate, Sin Eaters have Krewes, Mummies have cults, Hunters have compacts and Conspiracies. Give Humans automatic rifles and they can gun down a whole pack quite easily, and this is before bothering to factor in silver.

5/ Try grappling instead. Azlu webbing gets a big dice bonus to wrap up and Neutralize an Uratha even in garou form.

6/ Werewolves probably spend more energy fighting each other than other supernaturals. The rule that their bites can cause aggravated damage can lead to quick slaughters, so long as you can tolerate violations to the Oath of the moon and a loss of harmony.

All in all, an excellent essay, keep up the good work

[ArcaneArts]

1/ Ambushing a Werewolf in human form is probably the most efficient way to take them out. A werewolf probably spends the majority of time in their human, or wolf forms, so hitting them when their health track is lowest and without defence will probably work. We get hung up on their awesome Garou form, but forget that their human form is quite mundane ( unlike a Vampire or Promethean which is quite tough). The trouble is that if you don't kill it immediately it will transform and heal.

The primary argument around the vulnerability of human form is that a werewolf can just pop into Gauru for a bit, heal while wrecking shop a little bit, and then shift back down (and of course, the danger in going into Death Rage as a survival instinct).

Of course, that's a very contextless assertion and I took it on in a different thread.

[maryshelly]

The primary argument around the vulnerability of human form is that a werewolf can just pop into Gauru for a bit, heal while wrecking shop a little bit, and then shift back down (and of course, the danger in going into Death Rage as a survival instinct).

Of course, that's a very contextless assertion and I took it on in a different thread.

Agreed, but as you mentioned earlier it is best to amass overwhelming firepower before hand so that the targets health track fills up with aggravated damage so they cannot shift. I am sure preparing a good ambush site and automatic weapons would do well. I imagine many Hunter hunts might end this way.

Another post pointed out that sending a wave of expendible flunkies against a pack can force that pack to use up their garou forms and essence, if they go into Kuruth it would be a bonus. After the wave of flunkies gets wiped out ( as they most likely will be), the second wave can move in to finish the depleted pack. I'm sure Vampires are quite good ar doing this.

Finally, using silver is helpful as a Kuruth trigger would be a great way to send the pack into disarray. What do you figure is the more dangerous aspect of a silver weapon? The aggravated damage it causes or the fact that its a Kuruth trigger?

[HelmsDerp]

One thing I I think merits discussion is how wildly different individual characters of the same splat can be with regards to combat capability. It would be impractical to try to discuss every Discipline/Gift/Contract/Atavism/etc but those powers are going to make a massive difference in how a character assesses threats. A Beast with Relentless Hunter and Unbreakable, for example, is going to find many more cases where facing an opponent head on has a negligible cost than one without. Generalizing; characters with innate armor and passive or low cost fast healing have a very different experience with the world of violence.

On a systems level, the degree to which combat mechanics in Chronicles deviates from the base system makes it pretty easy to unbalance things in such a way that a character built to win fights isn't threatened by anything that isn't mortally perilous to the rest of their party. I did it by accident with my first Summer courtier. He'd failed miserably at making a heroic stand as a human and I resolved to beef him up such that he could take a few hits to stall while the rest of the Motley executed the clever plan du jour. Summer mantle, Armor of the Element's fury (This was after God machine but before Changeling 2e). Fast forward a couple sessions and we realized that anything that could deal more than a single point of damage to him was going to kill any other member of the Motley in two hits at most. Whoops.

I never did figure out how to have one character heavily invested in combat merits/powers actually get full utility from those things without putting noncombat/unoptimized characters in mortal peril.

[ArcaneArts]

One thing I I think merits discussion is how wildly different individual characters of the same splat can be with regards to combat capability. It would be impractical to try to discuss every Discipline/Gift/Contract/Atavism/etc but those powers are going to make a massive difference in how a character assesses threats. A Beast with Relentless Hunter and Unbreakable, for example, is going to find many more cases where facing an opponent head on has a negligible cost than one without. Generalizing; characters with innate armor and passive or low cost fast healing have a very different experience with the world of violence.

On a systems level, the degree to which combat mechanics in Chronicles deviates from the base system makes it pretty easy to unbalance things in such a way that a character built to win fights isn't threatened by anything that isn't mortally perilous to the rest of their party. I did it by accident with my first Summer courtier. He'd failed miserably at making a heroic stand as a human and I resolved to beef him up such that he could take a few hits to stall while the rest of the Motley executed the clever plan du jour. Summer mantle, Armor of the Element's fury (This was after God machine but before Changeling 2e). Fast forward a couple sessions and we realized that anything that could deal more than a single point of damage to him was going to kill any other member of the Motley in two hits at most. Whoops.

I never did figure out how to have one character heavily invested in combat merits/powers actually get full utility from those things without putting noncombat/unoptimized characters in mortal peril.

While I was more interested in the way various archetypes played with those expectations and making it clear how the principles and narrative structure, I tried to cover this a little bit when discussing the Hitter (on which we base all other assumptions)-but honestly, this mostly comes down to building encounters around your play group cleverly. In the same way it's not as impossible to have a newly awakened Arisen in a play group as people think, the Hitter's easier to build around than you'd expect.