Let's Talk about Combat in Chronicles of Darkness

[ArcaneArts]

One thing I I think merits discussion is how wildly different individual characters of the same splat can be with regards to combat capability. It would be impractical to try to discuss every Discipline/Gift/Contract/Atavism/etc but those powers are going to make a massive difference in how a character assesses threats. A Beast with Relentless Hunter and Unbreakable, for example, is going to find many more cases where facing an opponent head on has a negligible cost than one without. Generalizing; characters with innate armor and passive or low cost fast healing have a very different experience with the world of violence.

On a systems level, the degree to which combat mechanics in Chronicles deviates from the base system makes it pretty easy to unbalance things in such a way that a character built to win fights isn't threatened by anything that isn't mortally perilous to the rest of their party. I did it by accident with my first Summer courtier. He'd failed miserably at making a heroic stand as a human and I resolved to beef him up such that he could take a few hits to stall while the rest of the Motley executed the clever plan du jour. Summer mantle, Armor of the Element's fury (This was after God machine but before Changeling 2e). Fast forward a couple sessions and we realized that anything that could deal more than a single point of damage to him was going to kill any other member of the Motley in two hits at most. Whoops.

I never did figure out how to have one character heavily invested in combat merits/powers actually get full utility from those things without putting noncombat/unoptimized characters in mortal peril.

While I was more interested in the way various archetypes played with those expectations and making it clear how the principles and narrative structure, I tried to cover this a little bit when discussing the Hitter (on which we base all other assumptions)-but honestly, this mostly comes down to building encounters around your play group cleverly. In the same way it's not as impossible to have a newly awakened Arisen in a play group as people think, the Hitter's easier to build around than you'd expect.

[HelmsDerp]

One thing I I think merits discussion is how wildly different individual characters of the same splat can be with regards to combat capability. It would be impractical to try to discuss every Discipline/Gift/Contract/Atavism/etc but those powers are going to make a massive difference in how a character assesses threats. A Beast with Relentless Hunter and Unbreakable, for example, is going to find many more cases where facing an opponent head on has a negligible cost than one without. Generalizing; characters with innate armor and passive or low cost fast healing have a very different experience with the world of violence.

On a systems level, the degree to which combat mechanics in Chronicles deviates from the base system makes it pretty easy to unbalance things in such a way that a character built to win fights isn't threatened by anything that isn't mortally perilous to the rest of their party. I did it by accident with my first Summer courtier. He'd failed miserably at making a heroic stand as a human and I resolved to beef him up such that he could take a few hits to stall while the rest of the Motley executed the clever plan du jour. Summer mantle, Armor of the Element's fury (This was after God machine but before Changeling 2e). Fast forward a couple sessions and we realized that anything that could deal more than a single point of damage to him was going to kill any other member of the Motley in two hits at most. Whoops.

I never did figure out how to have one character heavily invested in combat merits/powers actually get full utility from those things without putting noncombat/unoptimized characters in mortal peril.

[maryshelly]

The primary argument around the vulnerability of human form is that a werewolf can just pop into Gauru for a bit, heal while wrecking shop a little bit, and then shift back down (and of course, the danger in going into Death Rage as a survival instinct).

Of course, that's a very contextless assertion and I took it on in a different thread.

Agreed, but as you mentioned earlier it is best to amass overwhelming firepower before hand so that the targets health track fills up with aggravated damage so they cannot shift. I am sure preparing a good ambush site and automatic weapons would do well. I imagine many Hunter hunts might end this way.

Another post pointed out that sending a wave of expendible flunkies against a pack can force that pack to use up their garou forms and essence, if they go into Kuruth it would be a bonus. After the wave of flunkies gets wiped out ( as they most likely will be), the second wave can move in to finish the depleted pack. I'm sure Vampires are quite good ar doing this.

Finally, using silver is helpful as a Kuruth trigger would be a great way to send the pack into disarray. What do you figure is the more dangerous aspect of a silver weapon? The aggravated damage it causes or the fact that its a Kuruth trigger?

[ArcaneArts]

1/ Ambushing a Werewolf in human form is probably the most efficient way to take them out. A werewolf probably spends the majority of time in their human, or wolf forms, so hitting them when their health track is lowest and without defence will probably work. We get hung up on their awesome Garou form, but forget that their human form is quite mundane ( unlike a Vampire or Promethean which is quite tough). The trouble is that if you don't kill it immediately it will transform and heal.

The primary argument around the vulnerability of human form is that a werewolf can just pop into Gauru for a bit, heal while wrecking shop a little bit, and then shift back down (and of course, the danger in going into Death Rage as a survival instinct).

Of course, that's a very contextless assertion and I took it on in a different thread.

[maryshelly]

This is an excellent post! Thank you for making it. It addressed many issues about combat in the Chronicles of darkness, especially the thorny issues regarding Werewolf fights. Here are some concepts you highlighted very well

1/ Ambushing a Werewolf in human form is probably the most efficient way to take them out. A werewolf probably spends the majority of time in their human, or wolf forms, so hitting them when their health track is lowest and without defence will probably work. We get hung up on their awesome Garou form, but forget that their human form is quite mundane ( unlike a Vampire or Promethean which is quite tough). The trouble is that if you don't kill it immediately it will transform and heal.

2/ Fleeing from Garou is a good way to neutralize it. The dodging rules effectively double defence and armor can neutralize the damage from claws. Many dread powers such as wall crawling, burrow, or air elemental can provide an escape, and spirits can use gauntlet breach to get away. You were correct that garou form really only works when the prey was effectively cornered.

3/ Fighting is only a last resort. A vampire can dominate a Uratha to get what he wants without causing a mess

4/ Humans are a great resource. Vampires can dominate, Sin Eaters have Krewes, Mummies have cults, Hunters have compacts and Conspiracies. Give Humans automatic rifles and they can gun down a whole pack quite easily, and this is before bothering to factor in silver.

5/ Try grappling instead. Azlu webbing gets a big dice bonus to wrap up and Neutralize an Uratha even in garou form.

6/ Werewolves probably spend more energy fighting each other than other supernaturals. The rule that their bites can cause aggravated damage can lead to quick slaughters, so long as you can tolerate violations to the Oath of the moon and a loss of harmony.

All in all, an excellent essay, keep up the good work

[ArcaneArts]

Adding to De-escalation and deviations as possible topics if I ever do more, the general role of the three tiers of characters in combat situations.

[ArcaneArts]

I find it a good thing even if I post less in the CofD forums because a lot of stuff just... is cool to read, take in, and move on.

Makes me kinda wish we could get a CofD version of Crucible of Legends for Exalted that can take some time to really get into various topics from a broader perspective than the individual game core books (even the blue book that has to cover mortal-play and can't get into cross game considerations as much).

If I ever get the impression Paradox is taking Chronicles pitches, I will throw that right in.

[Heavy Arms]

I find it a good thing even if I post less in the CofD forums because a lot of stuff just... is cool to read, take in, and move on.

Makes me kinda wish we could get a CofD version of Crucible of Legends for Exalted that can take some time to really get into various topics from a broader perspective than the individual game core books (even the blue book that has to cover mortal-play and can't get into cross game considerations as much).

[ArcaneArts]

Not gonna lie, I expected this thread to be a lot more controversial.

[PinkHaunt]

Took me a while to read through all of this but WOW I love this and even though I've been playing Chronicles for a good while now, this sumamrized a lot of topics I needed to be remebered and organized! This is a great post! Thank you!

[ArcaneArts]

Well, I've been getting that wrong for 3ish years lol TIL

I got a laugh out of how wrong I was previously on it.

[Tonkers77]

Part 3: How the Gamelines Play Around With Damage and What That Does To Your Game


Geist: the Sin-Eaters
There’s something inherently hilarious about the fact that a powerful enough Sin-Eater loaded with Plasm could swallow a bomb and survive but still doesn’t particularly have any way of healing bashing damage.

Well, I've been getting that wrong for 3ish years lol TIL

[ArcaneArts]

One of the main struggles I think people have with Chronicles when it comes to combat and violence narratives is that it hews colder than is easily assumed or desired by the average player group, where a lot of people go for heavier and more brutal horror power expressions, or even a Scarface sort of approach to the game's criminal underground general vibe of operation. And to be fair, hot, heavy, and fast combat does have it's place, even in the opening of the narrative or a sudden disruption to the sort of "gentlemen gangsters" tension. The funny thing about it all is by understanding and respecting the typical escalation of the narrative, it's easier to make deviations away from that model work all the more effectively-when you understand Chronicles violence and combat scenes as means more than ends, and more importantly as something that has social and structural consequences (and, in excess, has personal consequences one's psychological and sometimes metaphysical state), it becomes equally easy to see how tweaking those assumptions can be used to punch expectations and ratchet horror in a couple of different ways.

I might take some time to address de-escalation and deviations later on.

[Jester-PFG]

It's one of those things I definitely don't think gets enough appreciation, particularly as the subject of recurring antagonists and sudden threats go. A lot of the major factions* of the games may hate each others guts, but the unspoken social contract between them means that the kettle has to bubble and boil a long time before it goes over, because you need to have some legitimate grievances in order to earn murder, and with that a lot of other forms of conflict open up and allow for dynamics. It also makes the lone threat that's likely to express themselves through murder stand out all the more as a disruption to everything.

Or, as I put it to my Hunter group, slashers are only a big deal in a setting where murder isn't the answer to every problem.

In retrospect, I think now that if I'd known more about starting at the level of "bare fists" first, and slowly increasing the stakes to weapons, then to guns, and then cap it off by reserving things like banes, supernatural powers, and Cold Iron or Silver bullets as something of a cherry on the top, my own campaign might have turned out very differently. My players and I discussed character creation together and decided by consensus that we would pick up a lot of lethal combinations of merits, powers, and equipment when we built our characters so we could have a cast of powerful, combat-ready characters set and ready at the start. Then we went to war.

I don't for one second regret it, because I desperately wanted to, it was something we chose for ourselves, we're having fun, and we have a very good consensus as a group, but I didn't quite pick up on that things like doing aggravated damage and using banes was supposed to be a conclusion to the game, not the start of it, and one that's supposed to be reached at the pace of plotting and narrative, rather than the traditional process of "get XP and level up to unlock the cool stuff."

I'm now very invested in this system, so I think when I do get my next game going I'll have to figure out some way of providing some means of not exactly setting, but finding some way to keep track of the pace. I think I might look into doing something like establishing Rules of Engagement or a "Defense Ready Condition" Level or a "Doomsday Clock" which we can set to indicate where the situation stands, to help my players gauge escalation of force and provide some kind of a way to track to measure progress and use as a reference when making decisions.

[ArcaneArts]

The use of the different damage types as a narrative device to escalate the level of conflict along with the narrative and the stakes is something I'll definitely have to make use of in the future. I really appreciate that tip.

Subscribed!

It's one of those things I definitely don't think gets enough appreciation, particularly as the subject of recurring antagonists and sudden threats go. A lot of the major factions* of the games may hate each others guts, but the unspoken social contract between them means that the kettle has to bubble and boil a long time before it goes over, because you need to have some legitimate grievances in order to earn murder, and with that a lot of other forms of conflict open up and allow for dynamics. It also makes the lone threat that's likely to express themselves through murder stand out all the more as a disruption to everything.

Or, as I put it to my Hunter group, slashers are only a big deal in a setting where murder isn't the answer to every problem.