Ancients Awaken- the Old Ones Chronicles (Changing Breeds. Discussion, Brainstorming)

[Dagcon Faraday]

Well, I'm viewing the WAtP shifters to Changing Breeds in the same way I view Hunter's Witches to Mages- as a "simple template" which contain them and other weird things. Because I'm working with the Changing Breeds book, I'm trying to focus only on the fluff and from that book and how to fix it, and only than I plan on going for mechanics.

And about the origin- yeah, I know it sounds right now like something taking from Apocalypse, but it is a rough draft more for me to understand what exactly each Breed is supposed to be focused on. Their origin is going to be a lot simpler- in short "once upon a time Nature has given humanity the Changing Gift, a potential to gain the abilities of beasts in order to survive better. Each person has the potential to Change, but in order to do so he must come to a situation where he must decided if to evolve or to die. However, humanity doesn't need the Changing Gift anymore, and so the population of the Breeds becomes lesser and lesser. In order to stop it, the Breeds must find a way to evolve again and find a way to survive in the new world", or something like that.

This came to mind from the Testament of Marco Singe after I read your approach;

"First the Ancient Ones took the beasts of the field and granted them the knowledge to speak and walk. But these animals retained their wildness and did not make good servants. They grew wicked and violent, and were cast into the wilderness. They were the Second Children, whom men called demons."

[LostLight]

This came to mind from the Testament of Marco Singe after I read your approach;

"First the Ancient Ones took the beasts of the field and granted them the knowledge to speak and walk. But these animals retained their wildness and did not make good servants. They grew wicked and violent, and were cast into the wilderness. They were the Second Children, whom men called demons."

-mind blown- 0_0

[shkspr1048]

I just feel that, inspired and informed by local legendry as they are, it is just more fitting for the CBs (which I include with the WAtP shifters) to have unique origins befitting of their root culture.

For a parallel, look at the Kindred. The Clans may be functionally similar, but each has (or is implied to have) its own unique origin.

Of course, this isn't to say that there can't be multiple Breeds that share a common origin, just that they shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of the Changing Breeds.

[Dagcon Faraday]

In my mind, I'm still in the mindset of not having the individual breeds as an x-splat; for a simple reason is that even with Forsaken, they don't have direct ancestry lines that Kindred and Prometheans have with their Clans/Lineages. So I see the Forsaken culture as a deeply rooted culture that someone who changes into a wolf can easily associate with; either through human familial associations by way of the wolf-blooded, or with a face-value assumption that, "Hey I change into a wolf, I must belong with these guys or so they tell me".

Aside from that, I can see LostLight having a somewhat different vision in mind so I'd be curious to see where it leads. Like we have Werewolf: the Forsaken, but also we have Werewolf: the Apocalypse and Lunar Exalted. There are always different approaches to the same phenomenon.

[NeoTiamat]

I'm with Shkspr1048 in this. Indeed, I'd go with the flip and say that some Breeds may have multiple origins (werecats from several different places, say). Still, Lostlight's the one who's writing these, so!

[LostLight]

well, I'll detail more tomorrow (a weekly project, after all), but for now the plan is some kind of compromise between the way things were presented into Changing Breeds and the way they were presented in WAtP (not that CB was able to make up its mind for more than 10 seconds..), but in short- the potential to Change was Nature's gift to man. Individual species has risen on their own out of many reasons. In a way, you may say that Nature simply created a "new law of nature" in order to allow their creation in the first place, and that "law" was used in many ways trough the history by many different individuals. Something like that.

[shkspr1048]

well, I'll detail more tomorrow (a weekly project, after all), but for now the plan is some kind of compromise between the way things were presented into Changing Breeds and the way they were presented in WAtP (not that CB was able to make up its mind for more than 10 seconds..), but in short- the potential to Change was Nature's gift to man. Individual species has risen on their own out of many reasons. In a way, you may say that Nature simply created a "new law of nature" in order to allow their creation in the first place, and that "law" was used in many ways trough the history by many different individuals. Something like that.

Ok, I can follow that, but can the language used be changed? Maybe it's just me, but "Nature's gift to Man" sounds like something out of a Rankin-Bass holiday special. Is there some way to...I don't know, NWoD it up? Make it a little less "Mother Nature" and a little more "Shub-Niggurath, Black Goat with a Thousand Young"?

[LostLight]

I'll se what I can do. Like I've said before- I'm working with what the Changing Breeds book has given me (which is a lot of junk and contradictions, mostly)

[NeoTiamat]

As a side note, I feel that this may be worthwhile reading: http://tradwiki.foxxtrot.net/index.p...28by_Daeren.29

[LostLight]

thanks- I'll read it when I'll have time

[wyrdhamster]

LostLight, I must say your write-ups of Breeds made me to run game for them, so keep hoing ith whole game theme "you need evolve, becusaese yur are obsolete".

On other hand, Old Ones didn't stole my heart - they are typical "big bad monster" of most of nWoD lines - Bound in Mage ( I wouldn't be suprise if they would be the same as those beasts here ), some True Fae in Changling or Promethean Pandorans. You get the scale. Thing is - even if those are in patern antagonists, game also use lower to middle level adversaries - like Seers of Throne ( and many more ) in Mage or Hobgoblins in Changling. Using Changing Breeds themselves in this "Game Tier" is easy, but not interesing solution. Maybe you should think of it also?

On the other other hand ( ), Mage is one of my favorite games, as it's just such flexible. You have origin pices - Atlantis, Abyss, Watchtowers, Orders - but most of the time you can just take it, and make anything you like. It's because there isn't any definitive answer on templets origin. And I think you should made it here also - each Breed can have it's own "origin story" and it's Storyteller's job is to choose one concret for his game. Of course, basic common elements should be, but strive to make "truest story" could nicly highlight diffrences in splats.

And I still thinks Accords should be left alone - they are great ways of showing what you want to do with your character.

Dynasties would be good place for more political play with Changing Breeds.

[LostLight]

so, this week I'll present my idea for what is the Changing Gift. This idea is a compromise between a number of factors- first, the pile of *** given in the Changing Breeds book. Second, the will of everyone to have localized breeds and to keep them mysterious. Finally, my vision that the Changing Breeds should be connected somehow to each other while not having connection to the spirit world.

In "short"- here it is! Hope you'll like it

***

Sit, little child, and hear our story- the same story which was told to me when I was in your shoes. This is the story of who we are, of what we are meant to do- and most of all, it is the story of out gift.

The Changing Gift.

This power is ancient, almost as ancient as humanity itself. During that days before it was given, the world was a lot more primal place, and humanity has needed to fight daily in order to simply survive. During those days, man was no more than a prey, a meaningless being without the tools to survive against the many horrors hidden below earth, in the depths of the sea in the height of the heavens. Day by day, more and more people had fallen victim to those nameless horrors, and despair filled the heart of every man, woman or child among the old tribes.

And out of that desperation, came a scream- a call for help and the willing for a change. No one is sure who was the one who began the screaming, but soon it spread like wildfire, coming from each human's heart. The scream wasn't just a meaningless release of the dark emotions which ruled the life of the early mankind- it had words in it, asking from someone- anyone- for help. They asked to learn how to prosper in the primal world, how to become better than who they are today. To evolve! to change!

the scream was so strong, that it penetrated the walls between the worlds, reaching to the heavens themselves. It was heard in the shadowy world of the spirits, but they didn't answered- for it wasn't their nature to help, and there is no spirit of mankind. The scream was heard in the hidden depth of the dead, but they didn't answered- for the suffering of the living wasn't the interest of the dead. The scream was heard in the shining meadows of the nobles- but they didn't helped, only laughed. The scream was heard in the burning fires of the demons- but they didn't helped, only grinned. The scream was heard in the cold heavens of the watchers- but they didn't helped, just watched. No one of them was willing to lend its hand and help the helpless humanity.

But than, just before the scream passed, someone answered.

No one knows who is the one who heard the scream and decided to act. Some claim those were the great beasts from beyond the time. Other claim it was one of the old Gods, which decided to give humanity a chance to proof they are worthy to survive. Another faith is that no one has heard the scream, and mankind simply discovered the potential which was hidden in his soul right from the beginning. Finally, some whisper that something did answered- but that thing is so great and horrible, that no mortal mind could ever understand. What ever it was, it has given humanity a choice. Evolve or Die.

And humanity evolved.

And so, the Changing Gift was born. This power was given to all of mankind, sleeping in their souls, waiting to awaken when the time is right. No one really knows what are the exact reason which make someone to awaken his inner beast- his Nahual- and experience the Change. However, there is one condition which is always needed- feeling the urge to survive at any cost, even if you are willing to give up part of who you are in order to do so. And during the time after the scream, many among mankind were willing to sacrifice their humanity in order to become something better. Something which could see in the night's sky like it was a bright day, something which could track down a prey for miles and miles away by scent. Something which could dig through the earth, swim at the see and touch the heavens, finding the nameless horrors and kill them. Those were the first Changing Breeds.

Since that day, many weird and powerful beings has used the Gift for their own needs- suddenly, the spirits and the demons, the nobles and the dead and the watchers, all of them have finally decided to "lend their help" for mankind. Yet, while they were the catalysts for the Change, the Gift itself wasn't theirs to give- its was already in the hands of mankind, waiting to bloom like a beautiful flower. While those "patrons" has tried to take advantage over the Gift, they discovered that they couldn't rule what they didn't made- the instincts given by the Gift were too strong, leading the Breeds to do what they were supposed to do: to help humanity. For that reason, no matter how much the patrons tried, they couldn't gift mankind with the power to cross the worlds (well, with the exception of one, but we don't consider them among our ranks, and some of us think they are their own thing and not part of us). The Breeds were part of this world, forever and ever.

Under the guidance of the Changing Breeds, mankind has prospered- it finally had leaders to lead it, hunters to hunt for it, shamans to speak with the gods, knights to protect it and tricksters to teach them and make sure they won't feel too comfortable. Finally, they didn't feared anymore, and were free to follow their dreams and ambitions. Slowly, they gathered together, finding protection in numbers. From those gatherings, communities were born. From those communities, villages were made. From those villages, cities were risen. From those cities, countries were formed. From those countries, empires were built.

And suddenly, before the Breeds could notice, mankind didn't needed them anymore.

Gathered together, mankind found a way to make sure it will always have leaders to lead it so it won't have the need for a leader. It has started to grow food for itself, so it didn't needed hunters to hunt for it anymore. It sopped believing in the old gods, and so it didn't needed shamans and priests anymore. It was safe from war, and so it didn't needed knights and guardians. It made its own criminals and murderers, and so there was no need for tricksters anymore. The Changing Breeds has became redundant, and without a need to change, the Gift has started to die out.

So how are we still here, you ask?

It is because that when it happened, we were also given the same choice humanity were given after the great scream- to evolve or die. You see, we could simply vanish like we never were, but we decided to change- for changing is our gift, if you'll forgive me for the pun. While the Gift has started to become more and more rare, we have started to search after a new way to serve mankind, to find new ways to use our skills. Some of us failed, becoming obsolete and not manifesting anymore, except of on rare incidents. Those of us who survived has managed to adapt to the new times- however, we can't stop evolving. Humanity is changing again, my child, becoming more depended on itself as it thinks it could solve all of its own problems. We are here to make sure they would still need us, no mater what they think. We will survive! We will change! We will protect mankind!

If they like it or not.

***

so- what do you think?

[NeoTiamat]

Man, I feel bad writing this, but... I don't like it. At all. If I came across it in a book, I'd be flipping over post-haste with a slight wince.

As far as an example of 'Ancient Origins of X', it's not bad, better than CB by a good bit for sure, but... it runs into a few of the general issues that these things have, which really make me twitch (for the record, I loathe the Werewolf and Mage Ancient Origins as well). So, this goes without saying but for the record, this is just my opinion. Here's my problems with it:

1) I dislike 'Universal Creation Story' in general. I feel that it does a great injustice to the enormous cultural variance of humanity to say that everyone's basically got this One Big Myth about how X came about. There's also the fact that these Universal Creation Stories always have a distinctly eurocentric spin to them (which is understandable, for sure, I'm guessing most of us are Westerners here), which makes for serious discomfort. So, I much prefer the Hunter or Vampire approach of having numerous possible origins, and lots of disagreement as to what's real. (Yes, you can say there are Other Things possible, but when you set out a single Universal Creation Story in the first chapter, that's going to be the default and dominant one).
2) More specific to this... but there's a definite whiff of 'those poor primitive/weak humans' which sets my teeth on edge. This is also a common sin of the Universal Creation Story (how often do mundane humans do something important in the Mage or Werewolf origin stories?). Two things in particular. First, there's the idea that humans are somehow evolutionary weak and need help, which does not pass the sniff test. Humans are probably the most evolved, lethal predators earth has. I'm not even talking about guns and bombs -- prehistoric humans were largely responsible for hunting mammoths to extinction, they were so effective. Secondly, the idea that humanity needs the changing breeds to be leaders or shaman or the like is... problematic.

I think some of the issue is that you're trying to incorporate Changing Breeds's stuff into your work, which is a noble impulse but also one that makes me, and I suspect others, go twitchy. Changing Breeds was basically the NWoD distillation of all the 'yay ecoterrorism! humans are bad! science is bad!' stuff, and anything even in the general area of that has a bad taste to it.

You're free to ignore me, of course, but my own recommendation would be to particularize it. Instead of a great big Universal Creation Story, bring it down to the human level. "When X happens, a person picks up a Nahual, and here's how a few different groups have explained it." Totem animals, gift from the gods, product of sheer obsession, etc. Take your cue from Vampire, I think. It's pretty clear what happens when the Kindred Embrace, and it's fairly well known what a Vampire is. Why, on the other hand, isn't nailed down at all.

[shkspr1048]

I think it turned out pretty well...as one story to have among many. Just to step up the ambiguity, present some other options: An urban youth who knows nothing of history, only what she has experienced first-hand; a report from a scientist who has been researching (read: dissecting) various CBs; a spirit's eye view on these new half-breeds suddenly popping up; and so on and so forth. By presenting these options, each one as true as the others, you play up the uncertainty of these creatures' own existence. Is their an origin to their kind (kinds?), or is their history just as mutable as their shapes?

[Dagcon Faraday]

Wanted to throw this neural-flatulence in the mix I had last week. What if the Changing Breeds could actually (though not easily) change their breeds?