Ancients Awaken- the Old Ones Chronicles (Changing Breeds. Discussion, Brainstorming)

[wyrdhamster]

How about this, just to make my life easier: this is your project, so what do you want to call...all this stuff?

It's LostLight project, I only pointed my thoughts and remark that there could be better way to model shifters society, more in terms of his chosen theme and original Changing Breeds. But here are my more thoughts.

what is the name of shapeshifters are in the Changing Breeds (nWoD) book? Basically, the name one would call a shapeshifter before anything else besides it was an animal based shapeshifter?

Like ferals, werebeasts or beast-blooded? Terms described in Changing Breeds Lexicon?

what are you calling the groups (such as Land Titans, Royal Apes, and Spinner Kin)?

Breeds, as hey are called in CB book. They would be a more loosly working as Seemings in Changling.

what do you call the individual entries under those groups, i.e. Storm Bears are a what of Ursara?

As the whole they are Species, also from CB. Each shifters animal soul is described also as Nahual - if you are werebear, your Nahual is bear. Species would work as Kiths in Changling. Really, they work this way in original CB, all along.

are you sticking with accords and are they accords from the book (Den-Ward, root-weaver, etc)?

Yes, I would use that Accords. They have in setting senses, they fit to the Evolution theme chosen and are cool. Only I would mark I would see them more as Refinements in Promethean. They are "lifestyles" feral is now leading, not set in stone group. Ananasi werespider can start as Root-Waver, but could later in game change his life enough, that Heart-Ripper is more fitting. He assume new role, making peace with both his human and animal side on this, on the events of Storm - ferals equivalent to the First Change events of Uratha.

do you have any Regencies in mind, and if so, would they have any real impact on translating the Changing Breeds (nWoD) book into usefulness?

Changing Breeds mark those Regencies:
Bandaris, Chandra, Chu, Corleone, Hart, Lhamo, Mbube, Natolo, Rothburg, Sangrief, Toranaga, Vikarnes, Zafarani and Zhî.

We know from book that Corleone are family of European white lions. And Zhi are dynasty of werespiders.

In my idea, we open those "families" for all members of the Breed, not only Species, that correspond to concept. If Regency agree, even fitting other werebeast can join, if they have suitable Accord. All Regencies, as all ferals, want to "reinvent" themselves to modern times, those groups just have more experience.

For example, when I hear Corleone, I have in mind mafia of big cats from Italy. They are lead by white lions as the capo di tutti capi, but other cats can join "the Family". Some even Heart-Rippers of other Breeds join Corleone, with they need to conquer, shedding blood, and doing bad things as Big Bad Wolf. It's Cosa Nostra - Our Thing - and shapeshifters best get it. Men thinks about bisness, beastblooded knows that the "thing' is to shed human skin, or some lives in the way.

Zhi, on contrast, are China Root-Wavers werespiders. Their silk industry makes them businessmen and women, selling silk for highest bidder. Or it was in the past. Now they hold in they many legs grip almost whole Orient. They employ even other Root-Wavers in they "corporation", so they would dominate mankind once more, only now in suites and smiles. And they want you for they next endevour...

I think it's suitable idea for Z-Splat of game about animals in humans skins evolution.

[Gator the Unread]

Which is LostLight idea. I propose to stick more to original rules and make Species/Nahual as Kiths in Changling, Breeds as Seeming-like broad archetypes. Accords would be like Promethean's Refinements, in that character choose those "lifestyles" it for time being - which also was stated in original Changing Breeds that could be changed with next smaller Storm/ First Change and is suitable on Evolution theme of fanbook proposed. Regencies would be typical Z-Splat, where mainly one Breed is foundation of Regency - like Bastets can join Corleone Regency. I would also made option for specific Accord to join - Corleone Regency would also be open for Heart-Rippers Accord, with it all mafia feel. This worked in Changling and Promethean, why wouldn't it work for second edition of Changing Breeds?

How about this, just to make my life easier: this is your project, so what do you want to call...all this stuff?
More specifically

• what is the name of shapeshifters are in the Changing Breeds (nWoD) book? Basically, the name one would call a shapeshifter before anything else besides it was an animal based shapeshifter?
• what are you calling the groups (such as Land Titans, Royal Apes, and Spinner Kin)?
• what do you call the individual entries under those groups, i.e. Storm Bears are a what of Ursara?
• are you sticking with accords and are they accords from the book (Den-Ward, root-weaver, etc)?
• do you have any Regencies in mind, and if so, would they have any real impact on translating the Changing Breeds (nWoD) book into usefulness?

My brain got a lot less melty when it dawned on me this wasn't my project. I feel I can be more useful, now, or helping you reach your goals.

[wyrdhamster]

Regency is something you join, like a Tribe from W:tF or Convent from V:tR. Yes, I understand that most wolves as born into a tribe, but you can change it later. At some point, the wolf chose to stay with her tribe, even if she wasn't aware she made that choice.

Accord is similar to Auspice. It maybe or may not be a birth related facet, and is strongly tied to the shifter's personality.

Nahual is the...its what kind of animal you came from. Right now, I am seeing it as a really broad category, like "Land Titan" or "Bastet". There is no comparison that I can draw between other systems I am familiar with (I don't know C:tL)

Breed would be something made up all of these. I can't explain except for an example: I am playing a Bastet, who has a heart-ripper accord (the hunter, warrior, full moon style auspice), of an especially aggressive Regency. That translates into me playing a Rajanya (were tiger).

Which is LostLight idea. I propose to stick more to original rules and make Species/Nahual as Kiths in Changling, Breeds as Seeming-like broad archetypes. Accords would be like Promethean's Refinements, in that character choose those "lifestyles" it for time being - which also was stated in original Changing Breeds that could be changed with next smaller Storm/ First Change and is suitable on Evolution theme of fanbook proposed. Regencies would be typical Z-Splat, where mainly one Breed is foundation of Regency - like Bastets can join Corleone Regency. I would also made option for specific Accord to join - Corleone Regency would also be open for Heart-Rippers Accord, with it all mafia feel. This worked in Changling and Promethean, why wouldn't it work for second edition of Changing Breeds?

This is great in the way it makes things simple: no stating up 51 different "breeds" You make 5 Regencies, with 5 Accords, and 5 Nahual*, and you get 125 different combinations. Awesome. Plus, since Regencies can be treated as simple social constructs (you might be able to be born outside any Regency), you can ignore those easily. I hope.

Or you could propose rules on making yourself the Nahual, use Breeds from original book as backgrounds example, make some typical Species for start, and make 5 example Regencies that could be more added later.

Players don't need 125 combination. They need or 25 ( 5*5 ) * ?, in what ? is number of Z-Splats Storyteller approve. Or they need ?*5*?, like in Changling, to make settings even more fantastic, or just varies.

Also, if this is project is suppose to work with the Idigam Chronicles...stating out each...species? of were-beast is nearly pointless; each of specific type of were-beast will be a combination of Regency, Accord, and Nahual. It will be just a matter of making each combination work.

I think my model would work with that, in which you as ST approve players made Nahual for game, with some made examples.

[FallenEco]

Looking at it, Nahual would be a Seeming in C:tL terms.

I can try for the rest but it's a little tricky...

Regencies, as the social splat default to the Courts pre-GMC, though your description makes me feel that Entitlements would be a better fit. In Werewolf terminology, they'd be Lodges.

Accord comes closest to Kith, amongst the Lost.

Breed appears to be the short-hand description for the character's design. Rajanya instead of "Rahu Blood Talon of the Willow Branch" or "Malkavian Venture Ordo Dracul".
Is that about the gist

[Gator the Unread]

Side track moment:

With me getting all confused with the various names, I went back and read the posts, and looked up some of this Idigam Chronicles madness (call so because I can't wrap my head around a few bits). So I can be on the on the same sheet of music as everyone else, here are things as I understand them, using comparisons that I do understand (I am leaning heavily on Lostlight, for this):

Regency is something you join, like a Tribe from W:tF or Convent from V:tR. Yes, I understand that most wolves as born into a tribe, but you can change it later. At some point, the wolf chose to stay with her tribe, even if she wasn't aware she made that choice.

Accord is similar to Auspice. It maybe or may not be a birth related facet, and is strongly tied to the shifter's personality.

Nahual is the...its what kind of animal you came from. Right now, I am seeing it as a really broad category, like "Land Titan" or "Bastet". There is no comparison that I can draw between other systems I am familiar with (I don't know C:tL)

Breed would be something made up all of these. I can't explain except for an example: I am playing a Bastet, who has a heart-ripper accord (the hunter, warrior, full moon style auspice), of an especially aggressive Regency. That translates into me playing a Rajanya (were tiger).

This is great in the way it makes things simple: no stating up 51 different "breeds" You make 5 Regencies, with 5 Accords, and 5 Nahual*, and you get 125 different combinations. Awesome. Plus, since Regencies can be treated as simple social constructs (you might be able to be born outside any Regency), you can ignore those easily. I hope.

This also sucks because...I don't like it. Because in the project I am making, for my little group, I want particular were-creatures, not broad groups. I realize what I would do if I was I making a game for the masses. But its not what I would do if I was making a game for Gator the Unread.

Also, if this is project is suppose to work with the Idigam Chronicles...stating out each...species? of were-beast is nearly pointless; each of specific type of were-beast will be a combination of Regency, Accord, and Nahual. It will be just a matter of making each combination work.

*Nahual could be represented by a selection of merit like traits, purchased with a pool of points, making this number much, much higher than 5.

[wyrdhamster]

Hooray! Consensus! For now...

I would probably point that Prception +2 bonus or Natural Weapons +2L should be 1 Form Point. Lower thn that should be given logiclly, as freeby, probably.

What the hell, exactly, is the Idigam Chronicles? It appears to be Blood & Smoke for Werewolf the Forsaken. Is that right? If that is the case...crap, are we trying to adapt a pair of books to something still being built? That kinda feels like trying to skin a live tiger, while its still in the womb, of an angry she-bear.

Yes, Idigam Chronicles is second edition of Werewolf, like Blood & Smoke is for Vampire and yes, it's still in writing. But most of it's mechanics won't totally change. Developers stated obviously that stats for Forms of Uratha will be the same, only that Natural Armor 1/1 will be take away in favor of Defense working against firearms. I could see Land Titans to have Aspect giving them Armor 1/1, but rest of shifter probably will favor ( ) Defense solution. And IC in progress is reason why LostLight is silent lately. But I think we should thought about changes being made, so fanbook could come out rather quick after Idigam Chronicles.

[Gator the Unread]

I could agree with this logic, as both Perceptions and Natural Weapons are much smaller in scope than Attributes Modifiers.

Hooray! Consensus! For now...

So always would War Beast form get's +1 to all Physical Attributes? I'm not sure I agree with this. Once again I making point of were mouses and tortoise-blooded. This kind beings screams for if not negative, at least non existing Physical Modifiers.

I'm not in camp of "it should be more than 6 Form Points", rather "they should be parallel to Uratha". Werewolves got enough bonuses and favors in all itself, they stats can be made as balance factor for other groups.

Yes. No. Wait. Um...maaaybe? I can't justify "no negatives, ever". I am trying to say something like...negative traits should be used sparingly. And I don't think bears qualify for them. Land TItans, maybe. Turtles, yes. Mice...in breed form, yes.

Ugh. Brain melting.

First, you must understand that we aren't really working with Breads but with Species. Breeds are "famillies" of similiar shifters, but the Nahual is giving humans his powers. Not all Land Titans are Massive, not all Bastet are Killer Dexterous. Most of Species in Breed are, but not all. Those Inborn Aspects should be made on 1 on 1 basis, like with Kiths in Changling.

More brain melting. I'm using the wrong terms, again.

What the hell, exactly, is the Idigam Chronicles? It appears to be Blood & Smoke for Werewolf the Forsaken. Is that right? If that is the case...crap, are we trying to adapt a pair of books to something still being built? That kinda feels like trying to skin a live tiger, while its still in the womb, of an angry she-bear.

You mean Ursara, I assume? The werebears aren't werewolves.

OH, [email protected]#ing #$%$ @#$% @#$%. I am not any good with these name things today. I need a cheat sheet.

Brain completely melted. I'll hopefully post something useful tomorrow.

[wyrdhamster]

Form points
I don't think there should be a form per given per dot of perception bonus. I think that 1 form point for a bonus up to +2 is the way to go. Its on the same level as an attribute point boost, so one-for-one isn't appropriate, and grants some leeway to adjust for certain breeds.

Natural weapons is another possible source of form points, and another area I encourage vagueness. 1 form point for lethal weapon up to +2 damage, and 0 form points for only base bashing damage. Right off the top of my head, I can't think of any animals without lethal weapons (other than certain breeds of domestic cows and pigs) but there might be some. So, this is back burner thing.

I could agree with this logic, as both Perceptions and Natural Weapons are much smaller in scope than Attributes Modifiers.

I am in favor of 'nixing the +1 minimum attribute boost while in hybrid form; there are too many species not too. So, no arguments there. Exceeding the 6 points total is where the friction comes from. But I'll see about working through that.

So always would War Beast form get's +1 to all Physical Attributes? I'm not sure I agree with this. Once again I making point of were mouses and tortoise-blooded. This kind beings screams for if not negative, at least non existing Physical Modifiers.

I'm not in camp of "it should be more than 6 Form Points", rather "they should be parallel to Uratha". Werewolves got enough bonuses and favors in all itself, they stats can be made as balance factor for other groups.

Inborn Aspects
I highly encourage using Inborn Aspects in place of "Favors", which was where a good chunk of the mess from the original book came from. Too many species got too much for free. 'Realism" over "balance". I'm no longer pitching the idea to counter your attribute choices, but to be used with them, as you see fit.

Examples
For Land Titans, I am using Massive as their inborn aspect. It makes their hybrid to primal forms a size 8, which does wonders for their health, and grants them a +1/+1 armor (so the hybrid armor is 2/2). Its a big boost, and solely for Land Titans.

First, you must understand that we aren't really working with Breads but with Species. Breeds are "famillies" of similiar shifters, but the Nahual is giving humans his powers. Not all Land Titans are Massive, not all Bastet are Killer Dexterous. Most of Species in Breed are, but not all. Those Inborn Aspects should be made on 1 on 1 basis, like with Kiths in Changling.

Or we go with Changling solution all the way - Breeds get you one Inborn Aspect, Species get you another. But there is problem like in CtL there - what if character concept could be in two different Breeds? Those groupse are more "fast and loose" than hard-waven ones so I would abstaine from this way of solving things.

Second, in Idigam Chronicles werewolves won't have natural armor 1/1 and I would abstain from them in Old Ones Chronicles. It's as much post GMC patch for the Changing Breeds, as the reworking the setting. Other modifications to Uratha shapeshifting rules are described in this spoiler.

For Uratha, I would use a similar idea, only for strength. Call it, Strength of the Mountain, and spin it that while Land Titans are bigger, the werebears are stronger, at least pound-for-pound. They are size 7 in primal form, size 8 in hybrid form, and have the 9-again rule for strength based dice pools. Which forms they can use the 9-again rule is...unset.

You mean Ursara, I assume? The werebears aren't werewolves.

[Gator the Unread]

Shifting gears a little bit here:

Form points
I don't think there should be a form per given per dot of perception bonus. I think that 1 form point for a bonus up to +2 is the way to go. Its on the same level as an attribute point boost, so one-for-one isn't appropriate, and grants some leeway to adjust for certain breeds.

Natural weapons is another possible source of form points, and another area I encourage vagueness. 1 form point for lethal weapon up to +2 damage, and 0 form points for only base bashing damage. Right off the top of my head, I can't think of any animals without lethal weapons (other than certain breeds of domestic cows and pigs) but there might be some. So, this is back burner thing.

I am in favor of 'nixing the +1 minimum attribute boost while in hybrid form; there are too many species not too. So, no arguments there. Exceeding the 6 points total is where the friction comes from. But I'll see about working through that.

Inborn Aspects
I highly encourage using Inborn Aspects in place of "Favors", which was where a good chunk of the mess from the original book came from. Too many species got too much for free. 'Realism" over "balance". I'm no longer pitching the idea to counter your attribute choices, but to be used with them, as you see fit.

Examples
For Land Titans, I am using Massive as their inborn aspect. It makes their hybrid to primal forms a size 8, which does wonders for their health, and grants them a +1/+1 armor (so the hybrid armor is 2/2). Its a big boost, and solely for Land Titans.

For Uratha, I would use a similar idea, only for strength. Call it, Strength of the Mountain, and spin it that while Land Titans are bigger, the werebears are stronger, at least pound-for-pound. They are size 7 in primal form, size 8 in hybrid form, and have the 9-again rule for strength based dice pools. Which forms they can use the 9-again rule is...unset.

The Wing Folk would get the Flight Inborn Aspect from War against the Pure, naturally.

War Against the Pure has Resurrection for their cat breed, which I'm not sure if its suitable for the Changing Breeds' Bastet.

I was thinking about tweaking the Crawling Form and the Many Legged characteristic as Inborn Aspects for the Spinner-kin. Haven't got far with that idea yet.

I wanted some kind of luck base, fate twisted ability or host of abilities for the Laughing Strangers to draw upon. The idea of a collection of tiny powers that the were coyotes and foxes and crows could purchase as they increased in power and influence appealed to me. Exactly how, I'm now sure.

The Rokea would get Aquatic, which would grant bonus dexterity and movement. I think. I'm not sure.

And the Mokolé would get Form Dreaming, where they would get a number of dots equal to their [special advantage trait] to purchase special add on's.

I have no idea about the rest of them, yet.

Anyhow, their are just ideas, to help further develop your own ideas. Take or disregard at your leisure

An interesting note: cave bears, apparently, weren't any bigger or nastier than modern grizzlies polar bears, or the like. They topped out around 10 feet long and 1,000 pounds, which is right where the polar bear and the bigger brown beats get too. But reality isn't the World of Darkness...

[wyrdhamster]

So in the order of importance...

...I think I just found an issue in our translations. You appear to be using the Changing Breeds (the nWoD one) as a base, and the War Against the Pure as a reference. I'm using the War Against the Pure as a base, and the Changing Breeds (the nWoD one) as a reference.

Still, we want the better Changing Breeds by using WAtP mechanics, yes? So we should found common language.

First, which was last:
I wasn't actually trying to make a more powerful Uratha template. I was attempting to make more closer in line to the werewolf template, thus the baseline all the other shapechanger templates would be based on. I didn't see or make an Uratha template, so I really can't compare. That's a good point, though.

Baseline isn't be "all the Breeds should adhere to this". Based on baseline I made Form Points rules to give a balance to various Nahuals, but also variety. Having many different "were-species" and having each feel a bit unique is one of main targets of the Changing Breeds game, doesn't it?

I should have stated somewhere how important the balance between each of the species is to me. While I understand there is no way a were-humpback whale is going to balance with a were-sugar glider, when I make it, there is going to be an attempt. Nothing is more frustrating to me as a player than watching another player hogging all the action because my concept is weaker in dice modifiers, but not coolness. Nothing is more frustrating to me as a Storyteller than watching a solid, original character concept being upstaged by a loose-collection-of-rules-barely-tied-together-by-a-shoe-string-excuse-background. Sorry about that; really should have said something.

I agree with you, but unmodified WAtP Breeds template is too much the same. I also don't want to see some stats monstrosities as were in original Changing Breeds ( Land Titans and Storm Bears I look on you! ), but to encompass more animal souls than only most often predators ( like some cats and birds of prey ), you need some more flexible creation rules. Playing Changing Breeds with the book in one group can be were-gorilla, deer-blooded and mouse-changer. And they could come in conflict with mine Storm Bear in one story. Each should feel as unique as they "original species".

How want you to stay be true to animal souls they have and the feel of their animals, when between Storm Bear and mouse changer would be only 3 points of Strength modifiers bonus? Not too mentioned that mouse-changer should be weaker in it's hybrids and especially primal forms even compared to it's base human stats. In my solution maybe a mouse changer is Strength weaker, but is Dexterity deadly.

Yes, normal bears are hugely strong; the base grizzly from Blood of the Wolf puts them at Size 7, with a Strength of 5 and Stamina 4. Your ur-bears (not necessarily the storm bears, mind you) should be more so. Say, Size 8 and Strength 6 and keep Stamina 4 (individual variations would exist). It may not look like a huge difference, until you take into account its a five point scale base. Looking at it that way, Limiting the bear-blooded to a +4 strength may not look so out of hand, especially with the 9-again rule.

But there how many would have compared to it Grizzly-blooded and polar bear changer? Strength +3 and Strength +2. Oh, let's look on werewolves - They got Strength +3. Now our twice as big Polar Bears are weaker compared to rather swift wolfs in they War Form.

I understand you want to limit Attributes modifiers so they shouldn't be astronomically big. But looking on Uratha stats, I would say that modifiers up to +5 are possible for most powerful animal souls. That way werewolves would be best "middle class", and other shapechangers can shine in their categories. Strength +5 for War Form of changers that souls animal is weighting a 500 kg is in order, I think.

Inborn Aspects aren't suppose to have a cost, per the War Against the Pure, to which I agree. Its that one facet that separates one breed from the next. Its also how the Forsaken is separated from the rest of the Shapechangers. It includes the natural abilities to fly, enter the spirit world, have pack totems, and so on. In my project, its how I am separating (further) one species from the next. Aspects (the more generic style) has point costs, but I'm speaking of Inborn Aspects, much like Resurrection and Flight, could be more specific to a group, such as Land Titans and Laughing Strangers.

How you want to balance Aspects then, if you look for Breed to Breed balance? Our Storm Bears take 9-again, but were-elephants take 8-again? How to balance this?

On the subject of bonuses to Presence and Manipulation...in Werewolf: the Apocalypse, the characters could stay in Crinos for as long as they wanted. In Werewolf the Forsaken, they can't. The hybrid form is now a furious war form, designed for battle of the most brutal type...with some adjustment based on the breed's nature. The main point is that long conversations aren't likely in hybrid form, and social bonuses will go to waste, unless you are changing how long the various bloods are staying in hybrid forms.

Manipulation modifiers are also in Throwback and Dire Beasts forms that can be assumed on not limited time. Manipulation in War Beast form is really out of question, but is possible in other two hybrids forms and could be taken in consideration. That way a werehare and fox-blooded could have a very alluring Throwback forms, only to kill they victim in next turn they come to them.

[Gator the Unread]

First, which was last:

It dont feel all that more powerfull from Uratha templete. Those Storm Bears looks more like normal Bears, not ancient Ur-Bear that fluff in book is describing them. Compared to the werewolves templeate they got what? A Strength +1 and +1 Size. It's more look like as Grizzly, not monstrosity of ancient legends.

I wasn't actually trying to make a more powerful Uratha template. I was attempting to make more closer in line to the werewolf template, thus the baseline all the other shapechanger templates would be based on. I didn't see or make an Urtha template, so I really can't compare. That's a good point, though.

I should have stated somewhere how important the balance between each of the species is to me. While I understand there is no way a were-humpback whale is going to balance with a were-sugar glider, when I make it, there is going to be an attempt. Nothing is more frustrating to me as a player than watching another player hogging all the action because my concept is weaker in dice modifiers, but not coolness. Nothing is more frustrating to me as a Storyteller than watching a solid, original character concept being upstaged by a loose-collection-of-rules-barely-tied-together-by-a-shoe-string-excuse-background. Sorry about that; really should have said something.

I diverge here with War Against the Pure because not all Nahual animals are swift and as deadliest like wolfs, on witch rules they base it. I use max -3 Dex modifier if animal is a very uncontrolled one in his hybrids forms. Others can be weaker in they animal forms, ending with negative Strenght or Stamina. In this you get more diversity on games. If you play Changing Breeds you play it because you want something other than classical Werewolf "and we all are dark, spiritual heroes". One of things that can change that is negative modifiers in form change, highlighting differences between your Species and Uratha.

BUT I would advise most of the time to not take negative modifiers - most Species are "typical" animals, and as such, they dwell to more balanced way of living, as it is most successful. Mostly only Old Ones or very old Nahual - like Storm Bears - would use negative modifiers...On Changing Breeds character sheet we have Dexterity modifiers place, not section "Dexterity rolls modifiers". Also, you must remember that lower Dexterity is lower Defense and Initiative, giving only penalty to rolls is much more beneficial to characters, so as balancing factor is a bit weak.

You are, of course, very right. I will have to think on this a bit more. I had not considered the example of Manipulation, or the modifiers to the Initiative and Defense.

It's feral, not Fera. Fera is oWoD name for all Changing Breeds that no one knows were they got. Ferals in nWoD Changing Breeds is they own nickname for they "race", like mages called themselves Awakaned and vampires Kindred. Also popular are beast-blooded, like my Ursara would be call bear-blooded.

Duely noted. I am "cross platform" reading, so I am confusing myself. I'm gonna attempt not to confuse others. I like the idea of sticking with 'blooded' as a suffix, though.

Insane is logical in this example, as Storm Bears are described as INSANELY strong and big. They could be easily in Land Titans area, if weren't Bears.

Yes, normal bears are hugely strong; the base grizzly from Blood of the Wolf puts them at Size 7, with a Strength of 5 and Stamina 4. Your ur-bears (not necessarily the storm bears, mind you) should be more so. Say, Size 8 and Strength 6 and keep Stamina 4 (individual variations would exist). It may not look like a huge difference, until you take into account its a five point scale base. Looking at it that way, Limiting the bear-blooded to a +4 strength may not look so out of hand, especially with the 9-again rule.

It's interesting thing, but how much would you give dots on Aspect per Nahual? Changing Breeds advise 3 dots of inborn Favors ( natural Aspects, connected with Nahual itself ) and 7 dots of normal Aspects, more tricks that character heave learned after First Change.

So you are making problem go away by saying it's not here, and on fly making untested mechanics

Inborn Aspects aren't suppose to have a cost, per the War Against the Pure, to which I agree. Its that one facet that separates one breed from the next. Its also how the Forsaken is separated from the rest of the Shapechangers. It includes the natural abilities to fly, enter the spirit world, have pack totems, and so on. In my project, its how I am separating (further) one species from the next. Aspects (the more generic style) has point costs, but I'm speaking of Inborn Aspects, much like Resurrection and Flight, could be more specific to a group, such as Land Titans and Laughing Strangers.

I'm assuming if it got into the War Against the Pure book, its not 'untested', but that's just my theory. The amount of complaints piled at the feet of the Changing Breeds book imply heavily that it wasn't tested as thoroughly as one would have liked, at least in my mind. One's mileage may vary. I'm posting idea here, as clearly as I can manage, so other people can punch holes in them, effectively put them through preliminary testing, before I try them out in a game. Like so many others, I am polling the experts, while adding my scant knowledge to the information pool.

And I'm not saying a problem isn't there; I'm showing an alternate way of fixing it. Using a mechanic found in a different book(s).

On the subject of bonuses to Presence and Manipulation...in Werewolf: the Apocalypse, the characters could stay in Crinos for as long as they wanted. In Werewolf the Forsaken, they can't. The hybrid form is now a furious war form, designed for battle of the most brutal type...with some adjustment based on the breed's nature. The main point is that long conversations aren't likely in hybrid form, and social bonuses will go to waste, unless you are changing how long the various bloods are staying in hybrid forms.

...I think I just found an issue in our translations. You appear to be using the Changing Breeds (the nWoD one) as a base, and the War Against the Pure as a reference. I'm using the War Against the Pure as a base, and the Changing Breeds (the nWoD one) as a reference.

[wyrdhamster]

War Against the Pure stated a +6 attribute bonus, without putting any negatives in there, so I would avoid outright negative attributes. For example, what would you do if the base character had a 1 dexterity in human form? If it did drop him to -1 dots in dexterity, wouldn't that cripple/kill him? If you kept it at a minimum of 1 dot, he will have not reason to increase it, as he'll never gain any benefit until he gets a Dexterity of 4.

I diverge here with War Against the Pure because not all Nahual animals are swift and as deadliest like wolfs, on witch rules they base it. I use max -3 Dex modifier if animal is a very uncontrolled one in his hybrids forms. Others can be weaker in they animal forms, ending with negative Strenght or Stamina. In this you get more diversity on games. If you play Changing Breeds you play it because you want something other than classical Werewolf "and we all are dark, spiritual heroes". One of things that can change that is negative modifiers in form change, highlighting differences between your Species and Uratha.

BUT I would advise most of the time to not take negative modifiers - most Species are "typical" animals, and as such, they dwell to more balanced way of living, as it is most successful. Mostly only Old Ones or very old Nahual - like Storm Bears - would use negative modifiers. Also, some very small Species could use them. from time to time.

Instead, I would apply a -1 or -2 to all dexterity based dice pools. It is likely the effect will be the same as what you were looking for, but the wording will look different. You won't have to worry and negative attributes and he will benefit from increasing his attributes.

But if only wording is different, why to change it? On Changing Breeds character sheet we have Dexterity modifiers place, not section "Dexterity rolls modifiers". Also, you must remember that lower Dexterity is lower Defense and Initiative, giving only penalty to rolls is much more beneficial to characters, so as balancing factor is a bit weak.

I must point you to Manipulation modifiers example. I have plenty werewolf characters that now have 0 or "-1" Manipulation. It has bigger logic behind it, as in raging war forms, characters are unsuited to make very much of social threats. The same could goes to Species that have negative Strength, Dexterity,

In my own project, I am using Inborn Aspects to help expand the difference between the Fera (I learned what that meant today!).

It's feral, not Fera. Fera is oWoD name for all Changing Breeds that no one knows were they got. Ferals in nWoD Changing Breeds is they own nickname for they "race", like mages called themselves Awakaned and vampires Kindred. Also popular are beast-blooded, like my Ursara would be call bear-blooded.

Instead of pushing their strength to insane levels (which is what i think +5 is), make the Aspect grant a 9-again rule on strength based dice rolls. To make it a little extra special, I would also add the bonuses of the giant merit while in the bear forms. Though the giant part may only be for the storm bears. Perhaps require the character to have the giant merit before taking the template?

Insane is logical in this example, as Storm Bears are described as INSANELY strong and big. They could be easily in Land Titans area, if weren't Bears.

It's interesting thing, but how much would you give dots on Aspect per Nahual? Changing Breeds advise 3 dots of inborn Favors ( natural Aspects, connected with Nahual itself ) and 7 dots of normal Aspects, more tricks that character heave learned after First Change.

On the size of the animal form...I am not above simply assigning a size to the animal form, if its within 1 or 2 of the human size. Its not a small difference (every health box matters) but its not big enough to interfere with my sensibilities. Any bigger than size six needs to offset some how, I think, through a an Aspect or merit or something.

So you are making problem go away by saying it's not here, and on fly making untested mechanics.

I think that my solution is much better. Treat Size as one of Form Points, and those with smaller Size will get more points on other things. As I think about also accounting Manipulation for this, maybe Hare, Fox or Rabbit could get even positive modifiers for Manipulation in the Hybrid forms - they are so unnaturally pleasant and diminutive, you couldn't take eyes of. And Fox Hear-Ripper lady just go to you and you let her slit your throat...

Or I could propose that free Form Points could be spend on Aspect working for only this form - like you 9-Again for giant Storm Bears.

So...for Storm Bears, I would put it as:

Inborn Aspect: Strength of Giants (9-again on strength based rolls), benefits of the Giant merit while in hybrid-to-primal forms) -1 penalty to all dexterity based dice pools
Hybrid Form: Strength +4, Stamina +2, +3 size (including Giant merit), Health +5, Perception +2, claws deal +1 lethal, teeth +2 lethal
Primal Form: Strength +2, Stamina +1, Size +2 (includes species bonus and Giant merit), Health +3, Perception +2, claws and teeth deal lethal damage

It dont feel all that more powerfull from Uratha templete. Those Storm Bears looks more like normal Bears, not ancient Ur-Bear that fluff in book is describing them. Compared to the werewolves templeate they got what? A Strength +1 and +1 Size. It's more look like as Grizzly, not monstrosity of ancient legends.

[Gator the Unread]

Here are stats I based on rules in War with the Pure....

War Against the Pure stated a +6 attribute bonus, without putting any negatives in there, so I would avoid outright negative attributes. For example, what would you do if the base character had a 1 dexterity in human form? If it did drop him to -1 dots in dexterity, wouldn't that cripple/kill him? If you kept it at a minimum of 1 dot, he will have not reason to increase it, as he'll never gain any benefit until he gets a Dexterity of 4.

Instead, I would apply a -1 or -2 to all dexterity based dice pools. It is likely the effect will be the same as what you were looking for, but the wording will look different. You won't have to worry and negative attributes and he will benefit from increasing his attributes.

In my own project, I am using Inborn Aspects to help expand the difference between the Fera (I learned what that meant today!). Instead of pushing their strength to insane levels (which is what i think +5 is), make the Aspect grant a 9-again rule on strength based dice rolls. To make it a little extra special, I would also add the bonuses of the giant merit while in the bear forms. Though the giant part may only be for the storm bears. Perhaps require the character to have the giant merit before taking the template?

On the size of the animal form...I am not above simply assigning a size to the animal form, if its within 1 or 2 of the human size. Its not a small difference (every health box matters) but its not big enough to interfere with my sensibilities. Any bigger than size six needs to offset some how, I think, through a an Aspect or merit or something.

So...for Storm Bears, I would put it as:

Inborn Aspect: Strength of Giants (9-again on strength based rolls), benefits of the Giant merit while in hybrid-to-primal forms) -1 penalty to all dexterity based dice pools
Hybrid Form: Strength +4, Stamina +2, +3 size (including Giant merit), Health +5, Perception +2, claws deal +1 lethal, teeth +2 lethal
Primal Form: Strength +2, Stamina +1, Size +2 (includes species bonus and Giant merit), Health +3, Perception +2, claws and teeth deal lethal damage

[wyrdhamster]

The Breeds as a whole do not lend well to that particular theme as many animals adapt extremely well to urbanized environment and the theme only works on breeds who simply can't adapted (AKA large ferals). In my mind, the theme of a dying race should be thrown of the few breeds who are dying out while the rest of them focus on the theme of "urbanized jungle" filled with the usual fighting over mates, loci, and territory. the instincts of falcon-shifters urge them to feast on corpses of crow-shifters, the instincts of crow-shifters banding together to beat the crap out of predator-shifters and so on.

It shouldn't be as Darwinian as the freakin Shadow but it comes close and the culture should be able to make any mortal who ventures into it say 'Holy crap! These guys are brutal!".

LostLight, that is main author of project, proposed the Theme for fanbook of Evolution. Rest of us agree with that. In this main theme there is place for "we are dying race" as well "we must adapt to the new surroundings". In our new take on Changing Breeds the Gift were given to humanity so they could resolve and thrive in world of predators ( i.e. vampires, zombies, mages, and whole rest of WoD ) by Nature ( or other entity the individual Breed praise as patron ). But humans overturn to they secret protectors, developed they technology and don't need they now, so Breeds need to cut they new way in this world that don't need them. Both they First Change, and life after on is one evolution to the World of Darkness. Also, antagonists are old kind of Breeds that were extinct, but they are returning - lost they battle on dominancy in WoD ecosystem and evolution race. But they are still coming back.

It's as we see new take on Chaning Breeds setting in few sentences.

And both Bastet ( werecats ) or Wing-Folk ( werebirds ) can be both dominant group in the region. But they still would need to adapt to world of Man that don't need them. And they could easily fight over territory and a like.

the other thing I wanted to mention is what I've noticed from nWoD games in general is most of which can have their main antagonist splat (Strix/VII for kindred, Seers/banishers/abyssal magi for Mage, etc) pulled out of the game and it function well enough without them because all the remaining factions have completely intellectually and morally valid ways of doing things that take turns beating the crap out of each other.

Remains of Old Ones, as LostLight imagined them, are remnants of ancient Breeds that can take control on now feral, or other being and make her First Change. It can even control people a bit. Yeah, its basically magical dinosaurs bones making were-t-rexes! ( But not only )

I could easily see Old Ones wanting to take control over mage or vampire - but interesting would be implications. Would they work only to feather Old Ones Breed, like sorcerer coercing people in "nest" so, for example, five humans would "hatch" Velociraptors souls in them? Thyrsus shaman thinking he IS a were-raptor? Vampires could hoard the blood to spill on the Old Ones to awaken them.

LostLight, have you got more ideas on Old Ones beside were-dinosaurs?

[Shock]

I would say that this is totally ST fiat of thing. I'm looking more on ancestral spirits or rare Totems for Breeds. True is thing that Breeds are more race of flesh, than spirit. Even when I make my Ursara as spiritual kind, I'm more inclined to not use they own "Father Wolf/Wolf Mother" in creation myth, One of reason is that Changing Breeds have "we are dying race" kind of feel.

Considering that was a theme for Dragon the Embers, I am very well aware of it.

Then again, I look outside to see a swarm of magpies sitting in a tree. I turn out the lights and try to go to sleep only to be awakened by the sounds of stray cats fight/screwing outside my window. The place where I work has a pair of falcons nesting in the balconies and the ants have conquered the sidewalk.

The Breeds as a whole do not lend well to that particular theme as many animals adapt extremely well to urbanized environment and the theme only works on breeds who simply can't adapted (AKA large ferals). In my mind, the theme of a dying race should be thrown of the few breeds who are dying out while the rest of them focus on the theme of "urbanized jungle" filled with the usual fighting over mates, loci, and territory. the instincts of falcon-shifters urge them to feast on corpses of crow-shifters, the instincts of crow-shifters banding together to beat the crap out of predator-shifters and so on.

It shouldn't be as Darwinian as the freakin Shadow but it comes close and the culture should be able to make any mortal who ventures into it say 'Holy crap! These guys are brutal!".

Edit-

the other thing I wanted to mention is what I've noticed from nWoD games in general is most of which can have their main antagonist splat (Strix/VII for kindred, Seers/banishers/abyssal magi for Mage, etc) pulled out of the game and it function well enough without them because all the remaining factions have completely intellectually and morally valid ways of doing things that take turns beating the crap out of each other.

It's something to chew on.