Hunters vs mages

[BigDamnHero]

I would make the 9- or 8-again rule depend wholly on the size of the crowd, instead of altering the game's assumption that the only degrees of success are Success and Exceptional Success. Also, the Paradox modifier will only come into play if the mage does something supernaturally obvious. If a Fate mage is keeping themselves safe by making guns pointed at her jam, then there won't be a Paradox modifier.

I'd also argue that the dice pool should be based on Manipulation rather than Presence, since in most cases a hunter will be lying to the crowd about the mage. Telling the truth would more likely result in the crowd saying "Whoa, this crazy lady keeps calling that guy a witch. We'd better stay out of this."

[nofather]

I'm not certain that's actually true. Doesn't Lunacy also interfere with remembering the werewolf and werewolf activity? How do hunters hunt them? Evidence. You may not have eyewitness testimony (even your own), but you can piece together a pretty good picture. And the guy who shies away from silver? Probably who is responsible.

This is just to explain the difference.

With Lunacy there is a roll involved, and it is adjusted depending on the viewer's activity and numbers, as well as the relative strength of the werewolf. Quiessence is automatic and unavoidable. If your mind cannot rationalize the magic as a normal action, instead you get amnesia, while even a failure with Lunacy lets you rationalize the werewolf as a wild animal. If your standard world view allows for werewolves, for instance if you're a werewolf hunter, it might not even reorder your memories at all.

[Charlaquin]

As for Quiescence itself, there is no such thing as 'resisting' the Sleeping Curse. That should be perfectly clear by now. You either have a shard of the Abyss in your soul or you do not, it is a binary thing.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue otherwise. I'm certainly not.

However, that isn't to say there's no way to deal with the consequences of such , you just have to try a little harder is all.

This is what we are asking for. A way to deal with the consequences. A Tactic or a Merit or something that gives hunters a way to cope with the obstacles the Sleeping Curse presents, without actually circumventing it. Something mechanical that gives you a way to piece together the tertiary evidence, or makes the Breaking Points a little less harsh, or helps you recover Integrity. As it stands, dealing with the consequences of the Lie relies entirely on player creativity, there's no actual rules support for it, and Dave seems hellbent on making sure it stays that way, which is just a little frustrating for anyone who wants to play a character who's clever enough to Sherlock Holmes the evidence and find proof positive that his target is a Mage, but is not as a player actually clever enough to do that in real life.

I'm not certain that's actually true. Doesn't Lunacy also interfere with remembering the werewolf and werewolf activity? How do hunters hunt them? Evidence. You may not have eyewitness testimony (even your own), but you can piece together a pretty good picture. And the guy who shies away from silver? Probably who is responsible.

You are literally describing the proposed After-Action Report Tactic.

[Joker]

This is what we are asking for. A way to deal with the consequences. A Tactic or a Merit or something that gives hunters a way to cope with the obstacles the Sleeping Curse presents, without actually circumventing it. Something mechanical that gives you a way to piece together the tertiary evidence, or makes the Breaking Points a little less harsh, or helps you recover Integrity.

FWIW there is one Merit in that vein that has been spoiled.

Actively Oblivious ••

You’ve lived a hard life, and long ago learned that sometimes the only way to survive realities that are just to hard to face is to not notice them in the first place. That’s why you can smile while you patch up the hole in the kitchen wall and describe your dad as ‘strict’ rather than abusive. Little do you know, this ability of yours allows you to ignore the greater magical truths of the world as well as the domestic ones.
Effect: By spending a Willpower during an incident that might cause you to suffer a Breaking Point, you can actively ignore the event and not have to make the roll. This requires concentration. This active oblivious state also protects you from ‘seeing’ events that relate to the Supernal. As a result, should you be successfully and actively oblivious, you do not count as a witness to Supernal magics and cannot be a part of a Paradox risk. (Though you do create Dissonance as this cannot be kept up indefinitely.)
Drawback: Whenever you successfully ignore a potential Breaking Point, you suffer the Strained Condition.

Strained (New Condition)
Take -1 to resist the next time you suffer a breaking point and must roll. If you have Strained, you may opt to not roll, and the Condition can build, any consecutive times you avoid rolling a Breaking Point contributes another -1 to your next breaking point roll to a maximum of -5. After -5, you can no longer push it away, you snap, and automatically roll for Breaking Point at -5.
Resolution: The character suffers Integrity loss. Take an additional Beat atop that of the breaking point.
Beats: N/A

Just decide that being busy shooting the Mage (maybe involving the use of certain drugs or trance states) is enough to distract yourself from the fireballs they are throwing at you and you are good to go.

[Charlaquin]

FWIW there is one Merit in that vein that has been spoiled.


Just decide that being busy shooting the Mage (maybe involving the use of certain drugs or trance states) is enough to distract yourself from the fireballs they are throwing at you and you are good to go.

That, along with Eye for the Strange from GMC, could work nicely.

EDIT: In fact, that's just a great damn Merit for hunters in general, because a lot of the stuff they deal with as Hunters is potentially Breaking-Point inducing, not just Supernal magic. And it's pretty on-point for Hunter too, to shrug off one traumatic event after another until it all builds up and suddenly hits you all at once. Thanks for pointing this one out to me!

[wyrdhamster]

As to mine proposed Make a Scene Tactic...

I would make the 9- or 8-again rule depend wholly on the size of the crowd, instead of altering the game's assumption that the only degrees of success are Success and Exceptional Success.

I was thinking about it, as new Paradox rules in Mage would point to number of Sleepers - but still they make differance based on "few/many/crowd" kind of thing. I could rule one man for one success, or something like this, but rules in 2ED Mage ( at least spoiled ) are usage enough that some description working for "9-again Paradox rule" would work. Also, Tactics should work - they are extended action you practice specially with rest of your cell and pay XP for it - they should work, as their are a bit better than Merits characters use. It's their whole point they are rather sure way to exploit monster weakness.

But, of course, final version of fan Tactic I can shown after I see official 2ED Mage corebook and it's Paradox.

Also, the Paradox modifier will only come into play if the mage does something supernaturally obvious. If a Fate mage is keeping themselves safe by making guns pointed at her jam, then there won't be a Paradox modifier.

The same tricks are in Witchfinders for "lower" witches and they work for Hunter game. Fate magic works for mage only if you know hunters are coming for you...

I'd also argue that the dice pool should be based on Manipulation rather than Presence, since in most cases a hunter will be lying to the crowd about the mage. Telling the truth would more likely result in the crowd saying "Whoa, this crazy lady keeps calling that guy a witch. We'd better stay out of this."

It's more "Hey! All around! See what this mean person done! <Splashing the walls by the Hunters, and pointing finger on Awakened>" - that's why I think Presence is more logical. You want people to notice you and the mage, primary. You more making the fuss, than makes some direct emotional manipulation.

Or in more creepy version this...

As to the Actively Oblivious Merit in 2ED Mage

Just decide that being busy shooting the Mage (maybe involving the use of certain drugs or trance states) is enough to distract yourself from the fireballs they are throwing at you and you are good to go.

It solves problems when you know you are facing the mage, yes. But it does not when you have first encounter with him - you cannot make yourself "actively ignore the event and not have to make the roll. (...) This active oblivious state also protects you from ‘seeing’ events that relate to the Supernal." - because you would not thinking about encounter as magic in the first place. You could take mage as terrorist, but you would be then preparing for the other threat than the sorcerer at hand. Not to mention that most hunters would not live past first encounter with mage...

[Ophidimancer]

As to the Actively Oblivious Merit in 2ED Mage



It solves problems when you know you are facing the mage, yes. But it oes not when you have frist evnocunter with him - you cannot make yourself &quot;actively ignore the event and not have to make the roll. (...) This active oblivious state also protects you from ‘seeing’ events that relate to the Supernal.&quot; - because you would not thinking about encounter as magic in the first place. You could take mage as terrorist, but you would be then preparing for the other threat than the sorcerer at hand. Not to mention that most hunters would not live past first encounter with mage...

I think this is fine. Hunters should be scarred by their first encounter with Supernal Magic, gives them more incentive to hint down the witch.

[Charlaquin]

As to the Actively Oblivious Merit in 2ED Mage



It solves problems when you know you are facing the mage, yes. But it oes not when you have frist evnocunter with him - you cannot make yourself &quot;actively ignore the event and not have to make the roll. (...) This active oblivious state also protects you from ‘seeing’ events that relate to the Supernal.&quot; - because you would not thinking about encounter as magic in the first place. You could take mage as terrorist, but you would be then preparing for the other threat than the sorcerer at hand. Not to mention that most hunters would not live past first encounter with mage...

That's why you also take Eye for the Strange, so that after reviewing the evidence you can figure out for certain if the event was natural or supernatural in origin.

Or just have a Sleepwalker in the cell. I don't think one Sleepwalker on a team of several hunters strains suspension of disbelief too much. Especially since Unseen Sense is a pretty common Merit among hunters, and as a supernatural Merit would make any Hunter that has it a Sleepwalker.

[Dataweaver]

Yep. That "Actively Oblivious" Merit is very much the sort of thing I was looking for; the only problem I have with it is that it's pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect of hunters.

[wyrdhamster]

I think this is fine. Hunters should be scarred by their first encounter with Supernal Magic, gives them more incentive to hint down the witch.

I mean that first encounter with Supernal Magic would be Sleepers hunters last one - you know, Emotional Urging, Celestial Fire or Rotting Flesh and there are no hunters to have second encounter with Actively Oblivious Merit. Or they at least would not look for the sorcerer.

And I do not mean here Awakened should not use their Arcana capabilities - they should use them, it's why they are monsters in the first place. Only that there should be Merit, Tactics or something that could makes you resistant a bit to influence of magic.

On the other hand, there are not any powers to survive first encounter with vampire or werewolf in Hunter, so maybe I'm going too far? Maybe unprepared, first encounter Hunters should be "monsters dinner", just?

That's why you also take Eye for the Strange, so that after reviewing the evidence you can figure out for certain if the event was natural or supernatural in origin.

Or just have a Sleepwalker in the cell. I don't think one Sleepwalker on a team of several hunters strains suspension of disbelief too much. Especially since Unseen Sense is a pretty common Merit among hunters, and as a supernatural Merit would make any Hunter that has it a Sleepwalker.

One Sleepwalker is fine, I think. In the end, it's only variant of Unseen Sense. Could use it with some Tactics ideas shown before and we will have some Witch Hunting ways for even Tier 1 hunters.

Still, let's focus only on non-Sleepwalkers - those cells with Sleepwalkers will have much easier time to interact with Awakened,

[Charlaquin]

Yep. That "Actively Oblivious" Merit is very much the sort of thing I was looking for; the only problem I have with it is that it's pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect of hunters.

Personally I just plan to do a little bit of re-fluffing with it. Rather than ignoring what's going on around you, you're denying that it has an effect on you. When other humans would be traumatized, you bottle that shit up and push it right back down. You don't have time to be scared, damn it, not when people's lives are in danger! You'll deal with those emotions later, after the fucker that did this is dead and in the ground.

[branford]

Frankly though, Quiessence is in my mind hardly the biggest hurdle for a Hunter. That would be the sheer flexibility of supernal magic, and the fact that the Mage can probably, in a turn or two, devise some form of fuck you countermeasure for the Hunters. And lets not forget, that even without Quiessence Mages can still cast spells covertly, and are well incentivized to do so (Disbelief, sleeper Integrity damage, and Wisdom loss). Meaning that even the removal of quiessence will not necessarily make Mages easier to detect.

As I've stated before, I believe one of the greatest advantages of the versatility of supernal magic is that is often permits a mage to easily and quickly escape a violent encounter, whether that involves entering Twilight or the Shadow, simple teleportation through space or time, or just flying away or hiding. That is certainly a very bad thing if you're a Hunter. Not only have you failed in your hunt, but you now have one or more very angry mages, who likely know who you are, are very motivated to eliminate a threat, and worst of all, are very prepared for the task. The Hunters can all too easily become the hunted.

Yep. That "Actively Oblivious" Merit is very much the sort of thing I was looking for; the only problem I have with it is that it's pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect of hunters.

Personally I just plan to do a little bit of re-fluffing with it. Rather than ignoring what's going on around you, you're denying that it has an effect on you. When other humans would be traumatized, you bottle that shit up and push it right back down. You don't have time to be scared, damn it, not when people's lives are in danger! You'll deal with those emotions later, after the fucker that did this is dead and in the ground.

I agree with Dataweaver in that "Actively Oblivious," while interesting and useful for a Sleeper who's routinely exposed to supernal magic, is not really helpful or appropriate for Hunters who clearly and directly confront the supernatural because it is the supernatural.

Although anyone can create any merit they wish for whatever purposes or goals, I believe attempts at circumventing the Quiescence by "denying its effect on you" is not a "re-fluff" of "Actively Oblivious," but rather a significant "buff," and really alters the very nature of Sleeping Curse.

Moreover, "Actively Oblivious" does absolutely nothing to help you remember supernal magic (the very point of the merit), you are not protected by causing increased Paradox risks for the relevant scene, and the Strained condition makes it more likely you'll fail a Breaking Point roll in the future and lose Integrity (such as your next encounter with the mage). Even if only used as a framework for a similar merit, "Actively Oblivious" offers little real help to Hunters and forfeits important protections.

[branford]

Underdogs is one thing, whipping dogs is another.

I would simply note that Hunter has three tiers of organization and power for a reason. If certain supernaturals like mages are difficult and dangerous for higher tier, experienced Hunters, then lower level normal human Hunters without such advantages would indeed be "whipping dogs" compared to such prey intentionally by game design. It's the reason why the Hunter books include rules for constructing lower power magic-using wizards and sorcerers who clearly are not Awakened.

[wyrdhamster]

I would simply note that Hunter has three tiers of organization and power for a reason. If certain supernaturals like mages are difficult and dangerous for higher tier, experienced Hunters, then lower level normal human Hunters without such advantages would indeed be "whipping dogs" compared to such prey intentionally by game design. It's the reason why the Hunter books include rules for constructing lower power magic-using wizards and sorcerers who clearly are not Awakened.

They also have rules for creating your own vampires and werewolves - but we do not see all the time the devs to said "you need to use your own created vampires and wolves, not Kindred or Uratha when fighting hunters". EVEN on Tier 1 games.

But we are making circles here - Sleeping Curse is needed for both Mage and Hunter with it's witch hunting themes on Awakened. Just, please, stop talking to us "there is no problem", when at least few posters in all this topic mark there are. We pointing them clearly where they are.

I mark once more - we do not want to get rid of Sleeping Curse in Hunters vs Mages crossovers. We want to use tools and advice made by devs to run it more smoothly, a bit maybe omitting some effects of it, with use of Tactics of Merits. That's it. If vampire hunters can be prepered on Blood Bonds or werewolves one can be resisted on some part of Lunacy - why not our mages hunters?

[Charlaquin]

I agree with Dataweaver in that &quot;Actively Oblivious,&quot; while interesting and useful for a Sleeper who's routinely exposed to supernal magic, is not really helpful or appropriate for Hunters who clearly and directly confront the supernatural because it is the supernatural.

Although anyone can create any merit they wish for whatever purposes or goals, I believe attempts at circumventing the Quiescence by &quot;denying its effect on you&quot; is not a &quot;re-fluff&quot; of &quot;Actively Oblivious,&quot; but rather a significant &quot;buff,&quot; and really alters the very nature of Sleeping Curse.

The mechanics are identical, all I'm changing is the rationale. The text definitely describes someone who is in denial, so I don't even see it as a major shift in the narrative of the Merit.

Moreover, &quot;Actively Oblivious&quot; does absolutely nothing to help you remember supernal magic (the very point of the merit), you are not protected by causing increased Paradox risks for the relevant scene, and the Strained condition makes it more likely you'll fail a Breaking Point roll in the future and lose Integrity (such as your next encounter with the mage). Even if only used as a framework for a similar merit, &quot;Actively Oblivious&quot; offers little real help to Hunters and forfeits important protections.

I don't really care that it doesn't help with remembering what happened, I have Eye for the Strange to confirm suspicions of Magic, and as you said, not remembering the exact details of the encounter isn't all that important. I know I got singed in the fight, I remember it being from a Molotov, but my examination of the scene indicates that something magical definitely happened. Doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together at that point. The point of a Hunter taking Actively Oblivious to me is just to give them a way to put off the Breaking Points. Yeah, eventually it'll add up and the character will probably end up failing a future Breaking Point harder, but that's fine, I think it's an appropriate way for a Hunter to operate. And I don't care that the character doesn't add Paradox risk while using the Merit, that has never been the point. Again, I don't want a way to cheat the Lie, I just want a way to help the character cope with its consequences that actually has some kind of mechanical weight behind it. These two Merits accomplish that goal for me very well.