Hunters vs mages

[crapcarp]

Which theme is that? Mage is a horror game, about obsession with the occult and what it drives the protagonists to do. Part of that is the separation of what mages can see from everyone else, to isolate them so they forget about the collatoral damage from chasing Mysteries. Quiescence is part of that.

That they don't fear the mob like vampires do doesn't make them not horror protagonists.

Hubris. Apologies for not clarifying that in my previous post. I simply felt there was no need to repeat myself before.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Hubris. Apologies for not clarifying that in my previous post. I simply felt there was no need to repeat myself before.

Hubris is pride that leads to a self-inflicted fall. Classically, trespass against the Greek gods. Mages get themselves killed by the Mysteries they chase, all by themselves.

EDIT: Besides, having mage-hunters is what Banishers are for.

[Morty]

I've said it before, but mages being under no threat whatsoever from Sleepers goes beyond the issue of a Hunter/Mage crossover. And, like I also said, Hunter crossovers aren't in the same category as others. Because where vampires may or may not exist in a given chronicle, and may or may not be Kindred if they do, mortals are always around. And always end up victims of the supernatural. Mage 2e hammers home their utter helplessness about it more than any other splat. It's a fundamental part of the vision for the gameline, but one people take issue with.

[Diggs]

I always saw quiescence as something like a black box around magic. A mage can use the box to hide behind, so an observer might never find the mage, but enough observers and somebody find the mage. Finding the mage does not mean knowing the mage, however. If you witness a magic event, it is like you are thrust to the opposite side of the box. You could walk around the box and see the effect, but you would not know how the effect was creating, you would have a lie instead of the truth as explanation. I see people suggesting workarounds should be possible, means to walk around the box. The box is not altered or changed. The box remains a black box hiding all within. I see people suggesting a workaround would be a hack of the box, split it open or go through it. I don't think that is intended when "workaround" is used. Sleepwalkers, supernaturals, and awakened hack the box. Sleepers can only walk around and maybe they find something on the other side, more often not. If quiescence was absolute like it is being conveyed by some (presumably unintentionally) then how could sleepwalkers exist or mages awaken? This is how the two sides are talking by each other.

[branford]

Which theme is that? Mage is a horror game, about obsession with the occult and what it drives the protagonists to do. Part of that is the separation of what mages can see from everyone else, to isolate them so they forget about the collatoral damage from chasing Mysteries. Quiescence is part of that.

That they don't fear the mob like vampires do doesn't make them not horror protagonists.

To follow, in 2e, what mages see and know is truly the central element of the horror. No matter how bleak the nWOD, the Lie is still somewhat of a comfort. When mages Awaken, they learn the dark Truth about the world, that angels, demons, shades, etc. are real and watching you, that the anti-reality of the Abyss curses almost everyone's souls and threatens to tear existence apart, and unknowable Exarchs effectively rule over humanity with their symbols of tyranny and oppression, to say nothing of the various and sundry supernatural phenomena, effects and entities a mage learns about and encounters once he joins the supernatural world and explores the Mysteries.

Awakening no doubt opens the door to great mundane and mystical power and influence, but mages often need that power to survive. Now that they are awake, untold and immeasurable horrors are far more likely to notice them than ever before. The world is a nightmare few can fathom, and they experience it every minute of every day in all its terrible glory. Due to their Sight, there's simply no way they can avoid the constant knowledge that the supernatural, supernal and otherwise, is constantly infecting everything around them.

Mages might not generally fear the proverbial Sleeper peasants with their torches and pitchforks, but they have more than enough to occupy their attention and keep them awake at night. If the Hunters knew the full Truth, they would certainly go insane, or least not bother with mages, a relatively benign group of fellow humans

[crapcarp]

Hubris is pride that leads to a self-inflicted fall. Classically, trespass against the Greek gods. Mages get themselves killed by the Mysteries they chase, all by themselves.

EDIT: Besides, having mage-hunters is what Banishers are for.

Having gods or other powerful forces smack your ass down is certainly horrible, but having Sleepers do it? Absolutely no comparison. There just isn't. Why deny that delicious experience?

[Ophidimancer]

Having gods or other powerful forces smack your ass down is certainly horrible, but having Sleepers do it? Absolutely no comparison. There just isn't. Why deny that delicious experience?

How is that Hubris? Hubris is about you being your own worst enemy, about your reach exceeding your grasp. Mages being clearly above Sleepers is almost necessary to reinforce this theme.

[Charlaquin]

Yeah, I'm with Ophidimancer on that one...

[Dave Brookshaw]

I think Sleepwalkers and the existing "Sleeper witnesses cause obvious magic to risk Paradox" rules amply cover any subverting "but the true danger was the little guy" stories.

That the little guys then get horribly mentally mutilated by the Abyss they aren't even aware of, and then forgetting what they did - that's delicious. Everyone loses!


Case in point - here is an actual Merit from Awakening 2e, written months ago, gone off to layout already. It does what some people in this thread have asked for.
Liar (•)
Prerequisites: Integrity
Unfortunately, your very being strengthens the Lie. Your soul has been twisted by the Abyss and your presence warps the Supernal.
Effect: A character with this merit increases Paradox risk around her by two dice instead of one, and adds two dice to Dissonance rolls. She has the Open Condition against Abyssal entities.


That's as good a "modifies Paradox" Merit as you're getting.

[Almarck]

Hubris is also misjudging that those beneath you pose no threat as well.


Also, Banishers while great as a Mage antagonist are mages themselves aren't they?

[branford]

I've said it before, but mages being under no threat whatsoever from Sleepers goes beyond the issue of a Hunter/Mage crossover. And, like I also said, Hunter crossovers aren't in the same category as others. Because where vampires may or may not exist in a given chronicle, and may or may not be Kindred if they do, mortals are always around. And always end up victims of the supernatural. Mage 2e hammers home their utter helplessness about it more than any other splat. It's a fundamental part of the vision for the gameline, but one people take issue with.

Awakened mages are not under "no threat," it's just that the nature of the Sleeping Curse, the versatility and power of supernal magic, and careful organization and social structure, makes them inscrutable and extremely dangerous. Note also that there are other "wizards, sorcerers, witches, warlocks, etc." and other magic using humans besides the Awakened that are easier targets in the nWOD.

Not all supernatural prey is the same. To use a normal hunter analogy, hunting rodents or foul is normally easier than deer which is easier still than powerful carnivores like bears and the great cats. They all can be taken down, but the efforts, training and resources needed vary widely. Supernatural prey is no different, and in Hunter, the Tier system distinguishes who can expect to be able to find and kill what. Think of Tier One Sleeper Hunters as untrained, young, out-of shape hunters armed with a .22LR, and the Awakened as the African Lion of the supernatural world. Absent luck, significant assistance and great numbers, it's not going to turn-out well for the young hunters.

Plain vanilla humans, all hundreds of millions of them armed to the teeth, are a danger to all supernaturals, Awakened mages and others, and justify the Veil, Masquerade and other group secrecy. However, a small group of relatively average Sleepers should not be a serious threat to those who know the Truth and bend reality to their whims.

[crapcarp]

How is that Hubris? Hubris is about you being your own worst enemy, about your reach exceeding your grasp. Mages being clearly above Sleepers is almost necessary to reinforce this theme.

How is discounting the threat Sleepers can pose not being your own worst enemy?

"You can get past my defenses? Oh, that's adora-SHIIIIIIIIT!!!"

I think Sleepwalkers and the existing "Sleeper witnesses cause obvious magic to risk Paradox" rules amply cover any subverting "but the true danger was the little guy" stories.

That the little guys then get horribly mentally mutilated by the Abyss they aren't even aware of, and then forgetting what they did - that's delicious. Everyone loses!


Case in point - here is an actual Merit from Awakening 2e, written months ago, gone off to layout already. It does what some people in this thread have asked for.
Liar (•)
Prerequisites: Integrity
Unfortunately, your very being strengthens the Lie. Your soul has been twisted by the Abyss and your presence warps the Supernal.
Effect: A character with this merit increases Paradox risk around her by two dice instead of one, and adds two dice to Dissonance rolls. She has the Open Condition against Abyssal entities.


That's as good a "modifies Paradox" Merit as you're getting.

Didn't you admit that Paradox is more of an inconvenience for mages than anything? Sure, pile it on and it gets really bad, but dabbling a little really isn't. Perhaps it wasn't from you, but from someone else? I knew that was said on this thread somewhere and I don't feel like back-tracking to find it right now.

At best, Paradox is a lucky side effect that a Sleeper Hunter unwittingly delivered rather than a legitimate weapon. This is compounded by the fact that the Hunter perspective on the Sleeping Curse would be something like "These witches are so good that they can chuck fireballs at you then make you believe it was really molotov cocktails.", and that's assuming they know about it in the first place.

No, Paradox is really a non-option when it comes to dealing with mages. Exploiting their hubris is where it's at.

[branford]

I think Sleepwalkers and the existing "Sleeper witnesses cause obvious magic to risk Paradox" rules amply cover any subverting "but the true danger was the little guy" stories.

That the little guys then get horribly mentally mutilated by the Abyss they aren't even aware of, and then forgetting what they did - that's delicious. Everyone loses!

I also like the kicker in 2e, that if a mage doesn't contain a Paradox, everyone but the mage is usually at greater risk.

Case in point - here is an actual Merit from Awakening 2e, written months ago, gone off to layout already. It does what some people in this thread have asked for.
Liar (•)
Prerequisites: Integrity
Unfortunately, your very being strengthens the Lie. Your soul has been twisted by the Abyss and your presence warps the Supernal.
Effect: A character with this merit increases Paradox risk around her by two dice instead of one, and adds two dice to Dissonance rolls. She has the Open Condition against Abyssal entities.

I though Paradox is invoked when a mage Reaches beyond his abilities or performs obvious magic in front of Sleppers, with the paradox dice pool determined by the mage's gnosis, with greater numbers of Sleepers simply adding dice tricks like 8 and 9 again and rote quality to the paradox roll. Has this changed since the blog post?

[Satchel]

How is discounting the threat Sleepers can pose not being your own worst enemy?

"You can get past my defenses? Oh, that's adora-SHIIIIIIIIT!!!"

I did not expect to see the "Batman can't be Exalted because he's 'human' in his own setting" argument reemerge in this setting with this example.

Tien is a supernaturally powerful martial artist and Cell is an inherently durable nigh-immortal artificial being. That's about as far as one gets from "normal human faces off against enlightened wizard" in terms of comparable concepts.

I though Paradox is invoked when a mage Reaches beyond his abilities or performs obvious magic in front of Sleppers, with the paradox dice pool determined by the mage's gnosis, with greater numbers of Sleepers simply adding dice tricks like 8 and 9 again and rote quality to the paradox roll. Has this changed since the blog post?

"You can also risk Paradox in other ways – casting an obviously magical effect in front of Sleepers adds a die, or using a spell that you’ve burned your Wisdom over previously. If you have a Paradox dice pool, you also bag an extra die for each previous paradox roll your character has prompted in a scene. Multiple Sleeper witnesses apply a dice trick to the Paradox roll – a single witness doesn’t, but a handful of people will give it 9-again, light traffic 8-again and a crowd gives it the rote quality."

[Ashenrogue]

No. That's not what I want to do. I don't want to break the curse, I don't want to remove the shard, I don't want to resist Quiessence, I don't want to work through the Lie. All I want is to do exactly as you've been suggesting and figure shit out by deductive reasoning. I just want some damn Merits or something that help me do that.

Then I think what you, specifically, are asking for isn't necessarily what the other people in this thread are asking for. But lets completely ignore that for right now and cover what it is you are actually looking for.

First off, what sort of Merits are you wanting? What do you actually want them to do? The entire deductive reasoning thing is what the Investigation skill is for. You can already take specialties in it to notice patterns in conflicting reports, and then another specialty specifically for investigating cases involving mages.

You already have Eye for the Strange if you really need to find evidence as to whether the events involved the supernatural or not, in which you can use the piece of evidence obtained from that to try to figure out what kind of magic is potentially being used. Good Time management helps do all of this quickly, before evidence the trail goes cold and possibly even before the mage realizes someones really putting together some sort of case from whatever they left behind. Get dots in an occult-based Library to help smooth things over when trying to determine what you're dealing with and how to handle it. Honestly, at this point there really isn't much difference between hunting a mage and hunting a mundane serial killer or something.

So using the usual methods you should be able to track down the mage in question. Sure, you might not see/remember them using any magic, but you could probably surmise just from previous reports that some sort of mind fuckery was going on around this person and chances are you wouldn't be able to recall whether or not you saw anything directly anyways. So you're going into the situation on the assumption that you probably won't be able to see magic for what it is anyways, or that whatever the mage does it inherently manifests slightly differently for each person viewing it.

As for the actual hunt itself, this is where things can't really be mapped out very easily. What the mage notices from his/her end and how they respond is going to vary wildly from person to person. The Hunters would likely have at least a vague notion of what sort of abilities they'll be going against just from the information they'd have gathered so far, so they likely wont be going in completely unprepared. The more they know about mages in general the better off they'd be going in but regardless any sort of head on confrontation is likely to be somewhat dangerous.

So once again we get to afterwards. Accepting that they aren't going to ever be able to correctly remember their own encounter with the mage they'll have to do their best to piece together from their own conflicting reports and memories what they think had happened.

Now let me first state that I wouldn't like this to be written up as a Tactic, simply because I don't see it being written up with the attention to detail that I feel is required for this. If it were written up as a Tactic it would probably end up as an if you succeed your roll you piece everything back together perfectly with 0 consequences mechanic, essentially bypassing Quiescence altogether. The reason I don't find this appropriate is that there are things that fractured memories and physical evidence could not put together. You might recall the mage chucking a molotov at you and setting your coat ablaze, but simply knowing that fire was involved and remembering firebombs wouldn't and shouldn't give you the nuanced actuality of the events. Just and throwing could involve the mage tossing around bolts of raw force while summoning up spirits of fire. Having shards of rock lodged in your arms isn't going to tell you whether he was magically chucking them at you or teleporting them into your body. And then there are the truly strange things with which you can't understand as anything but magic and forget altogether. Again, I don't feel that having it as a Tactic, or even a Merit really, would be good for this. I think that good ol' investigation + in character assumptions handle this the best.