Hunters vs mages

[nofather]

Typically only splats that have the ability to reflexively heal themselves in a fight have banes. Changelings don't have one, and neither do sin eaters.

Alternatively the splats with banes can be considered the 'bad' splats. They are encouraged to interact with humans and may occasionally kill them. Changeling and Geist and Mage are more likely to be disconnected from the 'muggles' outside of backgrounds, Mortal Remains going so far as to suggest Hunters babysit rather than hunt the first two. Even Promethean and Mummy have detrimental human effects. Demon, too, but I don't think they have banes.

[PenDragon]

The kicker for Sleeper Hunters is "witnessing obvious magic", as well as being the thing that gives mages Paradox, inflicts an automatic Breaking Point on the Sleeper doing the observing. And supernaturally recovering the memory of a spell when Quiescence has taken it provokes another one.

Also oft-forgot in these kind of conversations is that Sleeper presence doesn't cause spells to fizzle out - it wears them down eventually, but being a Sleeper will not prevent a mage from fireballing you in the face.

The most important thing's the Breaking Point, though. Not only is the Paradox inflicted not that big an inconvieniance to the mage (it's only a point of Mana to buy it off, after all) but being a Sleeper Mage-Hunter means your career will be short, sad, and pissing Integrity.

This quote makes me want to run a hunter one shot, with a Mage antagonist, where I describe all events as they remember them after the fact. Including all the weird but explainable circumstantial shit that happened around the Mage, and those bizarre injuries the players received out of nowhere. Probably wouldn't even inform the players it was a Mage, just let them piece it together OoC.

[Ephsy]

Demon, too, but I don't think they have banes.

Glitches can count as those.

[Ophidimancer]

This is, in fact, how it works. You only get total amnesia if misremembering something as a mundane event is absolutely impossible.

The kicker for Sleeper Hunters is "witnessing obvious magic", as well as being the thing that gives mages Paradox, inflicts an automatic Breaking Point on the Sleeper doing the observing. And supernaturally recovering the memory of a spell when Quiescence has taken it provokes another one.

Also oft-forgot in these kind of conversations is that Sleeper presence doesn't cause spells to fizzle out - it wears them down eventually, but being a Sleeper will not prevent a mage from fireballing you in the face.

The most important thing's the Breaking Point, though. Not only is the Paradox inflicted not that big an inconvieniance to the mage (it's only a point of Mana to buy it off, after all) but being a Sleeper Mage-Hunter means your career will be short, sad, and pissing Integrity.


Sleepwalker is a one dot Merit. Most Tier-3 Hunters are automatically Sleepwalkers anyway. If you want to use the Awakened as enemies, use them.

So the thing where someone uses a powerful hallucinogen to train rookie witch hunters might actually be appropriate then.

[Maina]

Changelings do have a bane. Cold iron. It's just a very, very weak bane compared to all the others in other game lines. It bypasses their magical defenses rather than doing bonus damage.

[Dataweaver]

The kicker for Sleeper Hunters is “witnessing obvious magic”, as well as being the thing that gives mages Paradox, inflicts an automatic Breaking Point on the Sleeper doing the observing. And supernaturally recovering the memory of a spell when Quiescence has taken it provokes another one.

The most important thing's the Breaking Point, though. Not only is the Paradox inflicted not that big an inconvieniance to the mage (it's only a point of Mana to buy it off, after all) but being a Sleeper Mage-Hunter means your career will be short, sad, and pissing Integrity.

Eh; here’s how I see it: hunters have to cope with Breaking Points for witnessing the supernatural anyway; that’s built into Integrity. So either they’ve got a means of coping with such Breaking Points (perhaps through something like 1e’s Code) or they pretty much have short careers due to mental breakdown no matter what their prey is. And from previous times this has come up, ISTR that the tentative ruling is that a hunter who has immunized himself against Quiescence-triggered Breaking Points (assuming such a thing is possible) would still be subject to the memory-warping effects of Quiescence.

Sleepwalker is a one dot Merit. Most Tier-3 Hunters are automatically Sleepwalkers anyway. If you want to use the Awakened as enemies, use them.

Two points: first, “Sleepwalker is a one-dot Merit”, while true, feels like a cop-out, and gets back to the aforementioned discrepency I was talking about: whenever someone mentions Sleepers becoming Sleepwalkers in a Mage game, I’m always hearing about how difficult it is to do such a thing, and how rare and special Sleepwalkers are; but whenever someone mentions how much trouble hunters have in coping with the Sleeping Curse, the response is always “just give them the Sleepwalker Merit”, as if it was the easiest thing in the world. So which is it? Is Sleepwalker a holy grail that most Sleepers never acquire, or is it something that you can get just by joining the right organization?

Second, what if I want to play a member of the Long Night, a compact of Protestants who are trying to prepare the world for Christ's Second Coming (and who often try to redeem witches)? Or a Loyalist of Thule, a compact of occultist scholars with personal dislike for hubris? He can’t be a member of a Conspiracy, because he's already a member of a Compact; so gaining a supernatural Endowment is out. But the story potential is considerable, assuming it doesn't get trampled by the Sleeping Curse. That leaves several options:

1. give the hunter the Sleepwalker Merit;
2. say that the “mage” isn’t really a mage, but rather a much inferior “witch”;
3. say that the hunter is, in fact, a Banisher;
4. let the story potential get trampled by the Sleeping Curse.

The problem with the first one is that unless the Sleepwalker Merit is something that could reasonably be acquired in the course of a mage-specific Vigil, having it amounts to being a special snowflake who just happens to have immunity to the single biggest obstacle presented by the chronicle's target.

The problem with the second is that it puts Mage up on a pedestal that no other gameline gets placed on. Vampire hunters? Sure! Werewolf hunters? OK! Prometheans, changelings, slashers, geists, mummies, demons, or beasts? They each have their own challenges; but they’re all doable. But mages? Here; go play against these inferior mage wannabes instead, little mortals; you can't handle the Truth!

The problem with the third is like the first: you’re resorting to a special snowflake — and in this case, one that the targeted mage can legitimately claim is an abomination in its own right, worse than the mage himself. Thematically, this also threatens to undermine the character concept the “hunter”'s player was going for.

The problem with the fourth should be self-evident.

Frankly, the official “solutions” to this dilemma remind me of the old joke about the patient who goes to see the doctor, raises his right hand over his head, and says “it hurts when I do this.” The doctor’s answer? “Then don't do that.”

IMHO, the problem can be resolved in a satisfactory way if you're willing to budge ever so slightly on what mortals are able to achieve on their own: for instance, allowing hunter 2e’s version of the Code to develop immunity against the Breaking Points caused by specific supernatural phenomena, including Lunacy and Quiescence, and also allowing mundane means to circumvent the memory-warping effects of Quiescence (Network Zero is big on recording everything; and unless the Sleeping Curse is remarkably consistent to the memory alterations done to a group of witnesses, it should be possible to develop an “after-action report” Tactic that exploits the inconsistencies to piece together what really happened).

Or, yes, something as simple as letting a hunter use Practical Experience from an encounter with Supernal Magic to buy the Sleepwalker Merit. But somehow that feels too easy for what the Sleeping Curse is supposed to be.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Both.

It's a Supernatural Merit - you can't deliberately learn it, just like you can't hit the books to develop telekinesis. But unless you're interested in meta-narrative tricks, reenacting Memento, and a very definite uphill struggle, my advice is to give Hunter player characters intended for a mage-antagonistic game the Merit. Some people are born Sleepwalkers, and don't realize it until they see a spell. It's a contrivance, but one on the same level as "this group is made up entirely of vampires". Perfectly good device.

As for "budging?" No - absolutely not. I'm not going to undermine Mage's theme of being separated from friends and family by occult knowledge for the sake of a minority of Hunter Storytellers, not when the Merit's right there. You can either cause Paradox, or not suffer the downsides of being a Sleeper. Not both.

[Michael]

Or, yes, something as simple as letting a hunter use Practical Experience from an encounter with Supernal Magic to buy the Sleepwalker Merit. But somehow that feels too easy for what the Sleeping Curse is supposed to be.

Why? They're already a Hunter, that's not an easy thing to become. The temperement of a Hunter would seem prefectly suited to becoming a sleepwalker.

[Penta]

Why? They're already a Hunter, that's not an easy thing to become. The temperement of a Hunter would seem prefectly suited to becoming a sleepwalker.

I'd guess that if someone has become a hunter because of the actions of a mage, that means she sort of remembers those actions and thus probably is a sleepwalker.

[nofather]

Changelings do have a bane. Cold iron. It's just a very, very weak bane compared to all the others in other game lines. It bypasses their magical defenses rather than doing bonus damage.

I was thinking about that and I'd consider it more of a problem with their powers than the splat themselves, similar to Mages paradox.

[Elfive]

Cold Iron is an edge case. But it still fits the pattern actually. Goblin fruits mean that a changeling can sort of heal but not really. The cold iron affecting defenses is likewise sort of a bane but not really.

[Dataweaver]

Both.

It's a Supernatural Merit - you can't deliberately learn it, just like you can't hit the books to develop telekinesis. But unless you're interested in meta-narrative tricks, reenacting Memento, and a very definite uphill struggle, my advice is to give Hunter player characters intended for a mage-antagonistic game the Merit. Some people are born Sleepwalkers, and don't realize it until they see a spell. It's a contrivance, but one on the same level as “this group is made up entirely of vampires”. Perfectly good device.

You may not be able to deliberately learn it; but you apparently can deliberately acquire it: just join, say, the Malleus Maleficatorum, or a cult; or apprentice yourself to a thaumaturge.* As for the level of contrivance: a group of hunters that all happen to be Sleepwalkers strikes me as a bit more unusual than a group of vampires, especially since there are social factors designed to bring vampires together and there are no factors (prior to encountering Supernal magic) that would even make people aware of Sleepwalker status, let alone draw them together; and on top of that, it seems even more unlikely that such a group would just happen to confront a mage…

…unless there’s something about Sleepwalker status that subconsciously draws you to mages? If Sleepwalkers tend to cluster arond mages, then a cell of Sleepwalkers dealing with a mage wouldn’t be as much of a contrivance as a cell of Sleepwalkers not dealing with a mage.

As for “budging?” No - absolutely not. I'm not going to undermine Mage's theme of being separated from friends and family by occult knowledge for the sake of a minority of Hunter Storytellers, not when the Merit's right there. You can either cause Paradox, or not suffer the downsides of being a Sleeper. Not both.

First off, I wasn’t necessarily meaning you in particular budging; it was a general “you”. The sorts of things I’m suggesting would be more of a Hunter thing anyway; and when push come to shove, what really matters is whether the Storyteller is willing to budge.

With that said, you are of course the Mage line developer and free to do with Mage whatever you want, regardless of whether it makes sense to me; and I’m grateful that you’re at least willing to discuss the matter. I do think you’re overestimating the effects on Mage’s themes of isolation that would come from the potential availability of partial immunity to and/or workarounds for the Sleeping Curse on the one hand (especially if there are mitigating factors such as the partial immunity coming at a price and the workaround requiring work every time you use it), and underestimating the interest that might exist for such things in the Hunter fanbase; though I could be wrong on either or both counts.

Put another way, what’s wrong with both causing Paradox and not suffering (some of) the downsides of being a Sleeper if you have to suffer other consequences instead?

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* You later express an interest in preserving the theme of isolation brought by the Sleeping Curse. That latter option — a Sleeper apprenticing herself to a thaumaturge in order to become a Sleepwalker — strikes me as a particularly easy way to bypass that issue entirely (which I do not consider to be a good thing): get your family members to learn some defensive magic from a thaumaturge, and presto! Not only are they Sleepwalkers now, but they’ve also got a means to protect themselves when your enemies come calling; and they’re also thaumaturges in their own right, able to pass the Sleepwalker status on to others in the same way they acquired it.

Unless thaumaturgy can’t be taught.

[PenDragon]

In circumstances such as this it might be reasonable to insert a house rule on the order of, "Mortals can remember supernal magic (though perhaps not in perfect detail) when it caused them to suffer Integrity loss, though buying back Integrity lost this way erases the memory." and "Characters who've lost a few points of integrity to Supernal magic may qualify for the Sleepwalker merit, representing their gradual ascent out of the Lie."

[Satchel]

Unless thaumaturgy can’t be taught.

It doesn't have to be unteachable for it to be incredibly plain that you're blowing off the investment of time and dedication involved to become a thaumaturgical practitioner. The requisite several years of concerted study in combination with the very real possibility that there are factors that prevent someone from getting the forms to yield results means saying it's a "particularly easy" way to bypass the Curse is laughable.

[Dataweaver]

The principle is still sound: there are ways to intentionally acquire certain supernatural merits, which potentially makes them a viable backdoor for deliberately turning Sleepers into Sleepwalkers. Unless some care is taken with such things, they could be used to undermine Mage's isolation theme; and even with precautions taken, they’re a crack in the wall of isolation; if you can live with that much, what’s wrong with one or two other cracks in the wall that are similarly restricted, but open things up just enough to increase the danger posed by mortal antagonists?