Hunters vs mages

[Elfive]

Mage has an Isolation theme? I thought the theme was delving into things man was not meant to know and getting your head bitten off.

[PenDragon]

The principle is still sound: there are ways to intentionally acquire certain supernatural merits, which potentially makes them a viable backdoor for deliberately turning Sleepers into Sleepwalkers. Unless some care is taken with such things, they could be used to undermine Mage's isolation theme; and even with precautions taken, they’re a crack in the wall of isolation; if you can live with that much, what’s wrong with one or two other cracks in the wall that are similarly restricted, but open things up just enough to increase the danger posed by mortal antagonists?

Actually, one could argue that providing a viable, but highly traumatic route is closer to their themes. I can just see a Mage obsessed with revealing 'the truth' to his lover, who subjects her to all forms of supernal exposure, shredding her integrity and psyche until she finally snaps and becomes a Sleepwalker. But her experiences with the supernal are forever tainted, and he's cursed her with a life of traumatic reminders and horrific truths that she can do nothing about.

[Ashenrogue]

…unless there’s something about Sleepwalker status that subconsciously draws you to mages? If Sleepwalkers tend to cluster arond mages, then a cell of Sleepwalkers dealing with a mage wouldn’t be as much of a contrivance as a cell of Sleepwalkers not dealing with a mage.

Subconsciously? I would say that Sleepwalkers are drawn to mages, though I wouldn't say it would be subconscious at all. What draws them to mages is the fact that they can clearly remember magic. If you see someone blatantly defying the laws of reality as you know them chances are you're going to go looking for answers, and chances are your search for those answers is going to draw you closer to the mages themselves.

It would also probably draw you towards more Sleepwalkers in the same position, people who have also seen some shit and went looking for answers. And if that group of Sleepwalkers happen to stumble upon some answers that they really don't like then you're looking at a the beginnings of a potential Hunter cell.

[Diggs]

I think the isolation is from mortal society. I don't know how explicit the theme is portrayed, but it exists.

[branford]

Actually, one could argue that providing a viable, but highly traumatic route is closer to their themes. I can just see a Mage obsessed with revealing 'the truth' to his lover, who subjects her to all forms of supernal exposure, shredding her integrity and psyche until she finally snaps and becomes a Sleepwalker. But her experiences with the supernal are forever tainted, and he's cursed her with a life of traumatic reminders and horrific truths that she can do nothing about.

Sounds like the forced Awakening of a Banisher, and I would expect the Guardians (and the rest of the Concilium) would soon "have words" with the offending mage,

[wyrdhamster]

Sounds like the forced Awakening of a Banisher, and I would expect the Guardians (and the rest of the Concilium) would soon "have words" with the offending mage,

It can end this way, but it also do not make this scenario very likely - heck, even Guardians could force their loved one to become Sleepwalker, just to be with her. And later kill her, if she become truly Banisher, instead of Sleepwalker or stable Mage.

[Madfox11]

Nobody knows what makes somebody a sleepwalker and what not, but it is good to keep in mind that no Hunter is an ordinary human. If they were ordinary humans they would not end up as a Hunter, but 'forget' all the horrors they witness and they certainly would not start digging into the shadows. So is it really that much weirder to assume that all tier 2 and 3 Hunters have somehow become more than ordinary mortals, and that either having witnessed all the dark things of the world or being trained for it, somehow gave them that Sleepwalker merit or some other merit that achieves the same? Besides, if we are talking about PCs, they are by definition special and if it is NPCs you as the Storyteller are in full control and can explain anything through story anyway.

Now, if you want to throw tier 1 hunters against a true mage, you create a situation that will be extremely hard on the hunters, but is that truly so different from any other splat book as an opponent?

[Morty]

This sort of thing comes up so regularly that I think it goes deeper than just a crossover between two particular gamelines. It's more about... the relationship between mages and Sleepers being completely one-sided, I guess. Hunters are just its most visible expression, since they're supposed to be humanity's vanguard in the shadows, but any interaction between them and Awakened mages can be summed up as "lol, nope".

[Ephsy]

Two points: first, “Sleepwalker is a one-dot Merit”, while true, feels like a cop-out, and gets back to the aforementioned discrepency I was talking about: whenever someone mentions Sleepers becoming Sleepwalkers in a Mage game, I’m always hearing about how difficult it is to do such a thing, and how rare and special Sleepwalkers are; but whenever someone mentions how much trouble hunters have in coping with the Sleeping Curse, the response is always “just give them the Sleepwalker Merit”, as if it was the easiest thing in the world. So which is it? Is Sleepwalker a holy grail that most Sleepers never acquire, or is it something that you can get just by joining the right organization?

Corollary: All Hunters themselves are rare and subjected to insane amounts of trauma, both physical and psychic.

You may not be able to deliberately learn it; but you apparently can deliberately acquire it: just join, say, the Malleus Maleficatorum, or a cult; or apprentice yourself to a thaumaturge.* As for the level of contrivance: a group of hunters that all happen to be Sleepwalkers strikes me as a bit more unusual than a group of vampires, especially since there are social factors designed to bring vampires together and there are no factors (prior to encountering Supernal magic) that would even make people aware of Sleepwalker status, let alone draw them together; and on top of that, it seems even more unlikely that such a group would just happen to confront a mage…

…unless there’s something about Sleepwalker status that subconsciously draws you to mages? If Sleepwalkers tend to cluster around mages, then a cell of Sleepwalkers dealing with a mage wouldn’t be as much of a contrivance as a cell of Sleepwalkers not dealing with a mage.

You do realize the whole roleplaying process is deliberate, right? From planning plots, to character creation, to experience purchase.

Do you really find that unfeasible that a group of monster hunters wouldn't come together by their many means when they realize they can retain the memory of their encounters with witch-craft? Because that's like, the angular feature upon which most social constructs are built. Things that people have in common, to spell it out.

* You later express an interest in preserving the theme of isolation brought by the Sleeping Curse. That latter option — a Sleeper apprenticing herself to a thaumaturge in order to become a Sleepwalker — strikes me as a particularly easy way to bypass that issue entirely (which I do not consider to be a good thing): get your family members to learn some defensive magic from a thaumaturge, and presto! Not only are they Sleepwalkers now, but they’ve also got a means to protect themselves when your enemies come calling; and they’re also thaumaturges in their own right, able to pass the Sleepwalker status on to others in the same way they acquired it. Unless thaumaturgy can’t be taught.

With, I'd think, all the complications that could arise from y'know, belonging into a cult. That was gonna be the drawback in Mystery Cult Initiation:

Drawback: You're in a cult.

[GibberingEloquence]

I don't think you need to give the Sleepwalker Merit to all or most Hunters. Not remembering the more precise details of what a Mage did in front of you is not as dangerous as losing Integrity every time you see Supernal magic and the supernatural as a whole. I always thought Hunters didn't suffer Integrity Breaking Points for simply seeing monsters and their powers, but for how badly they might affect the Hunter and his loved ones. And even then, they would still be very hardened. Penalties for Breaking Points related to monsters would probably decrease over time. They pretty much expect horrible things to happen when dealing with monsters, and train extensively for that.

As for a Tactic that lets Hunters remember Supernal magic, I don't think it's necessary. As far as I know, Tactics are meant to be used right before or in the middle of combat, not after it. Remembering something important about a Mage's spells should be Resolve + Composure or Intelligence + Composure, with teamwork rolls allowed. The spell's Potency might inflict a penalty to this extended action, which might require 5 to 15 successes based on how subtle the Mage was. The Library and Patient Merits really help in this case. However, you can only get an Exceptional Success on this extended action if you are a Sleepwalker.

If the Hunters are going up against genuine Mages instead of Witches, they might be at a considerable disadvantage in regards to preparation. They could try to bargain and/or threaten the Mages' families, or look for dissidents and potential moles.

I am not sure what a Bane for Mages could be. These Banes are usually for monsters with very different physiological functions, like vampires and werewolves. Perhaps some kind of Abyssal Poison? Whatever that might be, it would probably be very chaotic in behavior and hard to treat and dispel. Depending on the context of Intrusion, it could also have additional effects, like being self-replicating (Anomaly), mutagenic (Brand), hallucinogenic (Bedlam) or a beacon for more Abyssals (Manifestation). Paradox in the form of versatile substance, so to say.

How does that sound?

[Ashenrogue]

I think the big thing is that witnessing Supernal Magic is always a breaking point towards Integrity. You're either effectively a Sleepwalker or you suffer a breaking point from it. With the way they're designed (unless I'm missing something which I totally could be), you can create a character whose breaking points are tailored in a way that interacting with other supernatural stuff won't affect them. You can't really do that with Supernal Magic.

Seeing and interacting every day with supernatural creatures isn't going to immunize you to this. You might be used to seeing everybody you know heal up almost instantly from life threatening wounds every day, but if you aren't a Sleepwalker seeing a mage use magic to heal a papercut is still going to cause a breaking point. Regardless of how commonly you experience things like that it will still erode your sanity because that's the nature of the relationship between mortals, the Supernal, and the Abyss.

[branford]

They could try to bargain and/or threaten the Mages' families.

That would be at the very top of the list of things not to do unless you want your remaining days to be very short and extremely painful, to say nothing of the fact that any mage with a modicum of foresight and intelligence has taken measures to protect family and friends. It should always be remembered that in the WOD, there really are fates worse than death, and mages are uniquely equipped to administer such punishments. If I were a Hunter, I would stick with the "easy" prey like vampires...

[2ptTakrill]

In the character creation section it lists several questions players can answer about their character to inspire background and personality, one of those questions is 'what supernatural encounter have you forgotten?' based on the idea that in the world of darkness almost everyone has had a brush with the supernatural but sanity made them forget. Sleepwalkers, those who start out with the merit, are the ones who didn't forget and that experience continues to haunt them, drawing them towards hints of the supernatural in an effort to explain what happened and that they aren't nuts. A group of hunters focused on mages would be brought together by the fact that they were already hunting supernatural knowledge when they met. Possibly even on the trail of some beastie.

[glamourweaver]

There's a merit in Banishers, I don't remember what it's called right now, that involves wielding Paradox as a weapons. It's one I'd be open to letting Mage-focused Sleepwalker Hunters purchase (allowing for "this character doesn't suffer the personal drawbacks of being a Sleeper, but their presence can still inflict paradox"). But even if the Hunter is only focused on harmful Mages, the Awakened community in general is going to see the character as an Abyssal taint/intrusion.

[glamourweaver]

Mage has an Isolation theme? I thought the theme was delving into things man was not meant to know and getting your head bitten off.

You say those like they're conflicting themes. Your diving in leaves your old life behind. The fact that the "enlightened" is now utterly different and apart from those who are still staring at the cave wall is kind of central to Plato's parable.