Ephemeral Entities and Doors?

[Xenesis]

Hi, I can't find anywhere that explicitly states how many Doors an ephemeral entity should have. I'm assuming that they should have base doors equal to their Resistance, but it'd be nice to know if that is explicitly stated.

[Michael Kenner]

Unfortunately this isn't explicitly stated (or at least nowhere I can find).

I checked Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd Edition, which seems the most obvious place to look for interacting with Ephemeral Entities, and it doesn't state it anywhere in the section on Goals and Doors on page 164.

It does clearly show that the system is intended to work on spirits as it includes this in the rules. "Against humans Hard Leverage removes one Door if the character’s Harmony is 8 or more; used on spirits remove one Door if the character’s Harmony is 2 or less." WtF 2nd Edition, page 164.

In the Chronicles of Darkness alpha PDF it does implicitly suggest it though if you compare two sections.

"The base number of Doors is equal to the lower of the character’s Resolve or Composure." - Page 81
"Resistance describes how well the entity can avoid imposition from its peers, and how easily it is damaged. It is used for all rolls that call for Stamina, Resolve, or Composure." - Page 127

However this requires a little bit of an assumption here as technically speaking it isn't a "roll", I do think it's a fairly minor assumption to make however.

Edit: Just an additional note. For any sort of creature their resistance attribute only supplies the base number of doors. In your post you ask about the total doors, which can vary from that based on the target's aspirations, virtue and vice.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Yes, they do, and the rules for Gathra (what used to be called Chiminage - bargaining with spirits) in Forsaken Second Edition use Social Manuevering as their base.

Werewolves often have to negotiate with spirits in order
to manage their hunting grounds, conducting diplomacy in
the First Tongue. Spirits are often willing to deal despite their
distrust of the half-fleshed, but require something in return — a
gift Ithaeur call gathra. The more powerful and high-ranking
the spirit, and the more it hates the Uratha, the greater its
price. Some spirits require service, tasks that will either generate
sources of Essence or further the spirit’s position in the
courts and umia. Others simply require Essence as a one-off
or repeated donation.

Treat negotiations with a spirit as a Social maneuvering
action (see p. 163). Most spirits have average or hostile first
impressions with Forsaken, and require Soft Leverage in the
form of gathra to Open Doors. Unlike mortal subjects of
Social maneuvering, spirits can’t agree to deals unless they’ve
been paid — until then, the Uratha’s player doesn’t roll to
open Doors. Hard Leverage — threats of Siskur-Dah, and other
strong-arm tactics — might force a spirit to accept a proposition
after a perfunctory gift.

The scale of gathra varies, decided by the Storyteller, but
in general two points of Essence, removing a Hursih from
politics, or a change to the material world that will produce
a small amount of Essence are the bare minimum, and would
move the first impression of a Hursih. Any lesser offering
requires Hard Leverage.

So, yeah. Spirits have Doors.

[Xenesis]

Thanks guys, cleared that right up.

Edit: Just an additional note. For any sort of creature their resistance attribute only supplies the base number of doors. In your post you ask about the total doors, which can vary from that based on the target's aspirations, virtue and vice.

Yeah, total was the wrong word to use there.

[The Throne]

Yes, they do, and the rules for Gathra (what used to be called Chiminage - bargaining with spirits) in Forsaken Second Edition use Social Manuevering as their base.



So, yeah. Spirits have Doors.

Uhm so, the base number od Doors, for ephemeral, is "Resistence"?

[Elfive]

Seems to be. It's a directly equivalent trait to the ones given.

[The Throne]

Thanks to all