Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[Dark Eras] Battle / Mass Combat Rules

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Dark Eras] Battle / Mass Combat Rules

    In modern times mass combat and classical battles are more and more rare. Automatic drones or special units tactical strikes are fact of present. However, in Dark Eras of history direct war were a fact of life and one could not live his life without even once taking part in mass battle, to defend his kingdom, town or even his family and close ones.

    Mechanics
    Those rules are inspired by Chase subsystem from Chronicles of Darkness and mass combat rules from Savage Worlds.

    They resolve on those basic terms:
    Accumulated Successes - Measure of success for particular side in battle.
    Battle Turn - Measure of time in Battle. It takes about 15 minutes of time.
    Important Character - This character is commander, hero or just exceptional individual that can swing the tides of Battle. In contrast to others fighters, they can use Down & Dirty Combat rules ( see Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook, page 87 ) on whole Unit. Players characters are automatic Important Characters. So does leading NPCs. In normal situations each supernatural creature amidst armies is also Important Character.
    Target Number - Number of Successes need for the side to win the Battle.
    Unit - Basic, independent part of army. Most of the times it will be size of players group or slightly larger part of army - like Vikings boat with it’s crew or Roman infantry Contubernium, smallest part of Legion. Large or complex war machines can be worth two or more “normal” Units - like balista or tank. If army is composed solely from supernatural characters, the supernatural group ( coterie, pack, cabal, etc. ) is treated as basic Unit.

    Units are run as Brief Nightmares ( CoD Rulebook, p. 143 ) taking in account those advice - Minion would be for this lone, not very special individual soldier or vehicle you find sometimes in smaller battles. Most infantry squads and similar would use Horde stats. Lone Terror would be for those true war machines and their crew - catapults, cannons or early tanks. Note, for Willpower trait or typical Resolve + Composure dicepool, use twice Willpower/Scene number. It's coming from this official rule:

    Originally posted by CoD, p. 144
    For resisted actions, use All Other Pools value as resistance Attribute unless Best Dice Pool or Worst Dice Pool actions would be more relevant.
    Battle
    The conflict itself is resolved are similar to rules of Chase ( see Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook, page 84 ). Starting Target Number is 10 for both sides. Each Unit more one side over the other is adding 1 to Target Number of enemy side. Very big or special Units can add more to enemies Target Numbers. Players and other Important Characters are not counted in this basic estimations. There are other modifiers of Target Number, like Chase Modifiers Table. Then add to Targer Number for each Important Character - each one is worth of 1 to Target Number of enemy.

    Battles are resolved as normal combat, only each turn takes about 15 minutes. On beginning of it, Important Characters roll their Initiative. Both armies do not roll it, as their “actions” are resolved more as Edge in Chase in Resolving the Turn phase. Important Characters do their actions in normal order. As turn is taking 15 minutes, each Character can make as much as he wants Reflexive Actions, but only one Instant one. (Storyteller is final arbiter ). Supernatural character can use it one of Instant powers and take other Instant Action in the same turn. Each Success in Down and Dirty Combat by Important Character is treated as one Success in general Battle for the side. Characters Exceptional Success is treated as two Battle Successes. Each Success taken by character is equal to defeating one Unit of enemy. Important Characters can fight between themselves - then take them out of Battle and resolve they fight on normal combat rules. If one of Important Characters is defeated, it’s enemies get 1 for Accumulated Successes pool.

    Resolving the Turn
    When whole Initiative of Important Characters has passed, it comes time to resolve the Battle’s turn effects. Each side rolls it’s Accumulated Successes for each defeated Unit or Important Character to this moment. Start the side with the Edge in this moment. Each Success on this roll is added as next Accumulated Successes pool. Wins the side that makes Accumulated Successes pool equal to their Target Number. Even when some enemy Units can survive, they run away and leave the Battle.

    Maneuvers
    Armies can make devastating maneuvers. Each one works more or less like creating the Plan for Battle by one of Important Characters ( see Building Equipment in Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook, page 100 ). Difference is that Important Character making it is limited to number of Unites he can use by his Presence and maximal modifier he can make for Maneuver is equal to it’s Presence dots. When two Important Characters of one side fight over the same Unites to use, wins the one with higher Presence. If both Characters are still equal, wins one with higher Maneuver dicepool. If still is tie, roll a die.

    When commencing Maneuver, at the Resolving the Turn, Maneuver adds it’s bonus on this particular roll with Accumulated Successes pool. After one roll, Maneuvers end and bonus is lost. Successful Maneuver is great way to take Edge from enemies. To get bonus in next Battle Turn, Important Character needs to make next Maneuver action.

    Battle Objections
    Some actions or goals are crucial to winning the Battle. Typical are 'breaching the walls', 'taking over hilltop', 'killing enemy general' or 'destroying supplies of enemy'. Storyteller may judge that some actions are worth automatic Accumulated Success by fulfilling them by one army. They typically give 1-3 Accumulated Success per goal fulfilled.

    Morale – Signs, Omens and Speeches

    Spirit in soldiers hearts can win or lose the battle. Prophecy from night before conflict can foresee the resolution of combat. Maybe bad star showing on the sky, or unfortunate reading of oracle, is not always winning of the particular side – but it surely impact the flow of battle. Also, leaders of each army, doing particular speech before battle, can influence his army winning or losing.

    Mechanics
    Sings and Omens are constant bonus or penalty for particular side of army that understand it’s meaning – more of army members is taking particular Omen to their heart, modifier is higher for this side. They range from +/- 5 to each Resolving the Turn rolls, judged by Storyteller. Prophetic Dreams and similar powers from supernatural members of army can gives their usage as bonus to their side actions – in number of dots of this power taken. Exception are powers like Prophetic Dreams for Cathalith that do not have dots rating – then use half of Supernatural Tolerance trait of this character ( rounded down ) as modifier to this army for whole battle.

    Speeches of army leaders are made as Building Equipment, only those bonuses are constant for each army till the end of battle. Most are made based on Persuasion Skill rolls.

    Aftermath
    Each Accumulated Successes is one Unit of enemy defeated. As Battle’s Turns are taking 15 minutes, those that did not get help earlier are dead. There can be made dramatic exception when, for example, vampire want’s to find barely living mortal to Embrace him after winning the Battle with his army. It’s assume that monster finds exceptionally resilient combatant or one that had more luck than rest of his Unit - that barely lives in this moment.

    Conclusion
    What do you think about those rules? Any advises on improving them? I made them when thinking about running Viking Werewolf game and understanding that battle scenes will be often then.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-10-2018, 06:39 AM.


    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ through Ages
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    I've fiddled around with many different kinds of mass combat rules. I think particularly given the way that werewolfs can heal and enter frenzies it might be difficult to account for this with single long turns.

    It sounds like you might also run into some issues with making every success of a pc equal to the larger unit success. And it might make the combat feel like a 'race' to the threshold.

    Scene-Based combat from World of Darkness Mirrors might work for you. If all you're interested in is what your PCs accomplish. I personally would abstract the units fighting and just utilize regular combat for a sequence of battles, so say a big battle might have 4 combat scenes and a half dozen objectives or a night raid might have 2 battles with a single objective.

    If your pcs are less involved in the fighting and more the movers and shakers, war leaders and such. There's a pretty abstract system in MtA: The Ascension.

    If epic werewolf heroes felling hundreds of armed soldiers is more your thing, I'd recommend checking out Dark Ages: Spoils of War or Exalted 3e for more inspiration.

    Really the system should reflect what feel you're looking for, how much granularity you want, and how much players agency should impact the fights. Hope that helps, I don't have my books in front of me but I'd be happy to get into more details when I can.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SpanishInquisition View Post
      I think particularly given the way that werewolfs can heal and enter frenzies it might be difficult to account for this with single long turns.
      As Battle Action is 15 minutes, it means that character can declare one attack target and it ends - if character insists on running in Gauru or getting 'immortality' ( instant Regeneration ), he goes in Hard Rage, risking massacre on whole his units - depending on Primal Urge, it can even take few Battle Turns. Not to mention he can roll other werewolves in Rage themselves.

      But the 'turn-to-turn' Regeneration is easily taken in account like assuming that character can heal any non-Aggravated damage of one Unit. If more Units are surrounding him, count next Unit damage as going over next Battle Turn to him. If werewolf do not is attacked by next Unit, he can simply heal his previous wounds from before Unit.

      Originally posted by SpanishInquisition View Post
      I personally would abstract the units fighting
      Charlaquin advised to use Brief Nightmares to Units in other topic. I will probably revision rules once more.


      My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
      LGBT+ through Ages
      LGBT+ in CoD games

      Comment


      • #4
        Rules Revision

        Units are run as Brief Nightmares ( CoD Rulebook, p. 143 ) taking in account those advices - Minion would be for this lone, not very special individual soldier or vehicle you find sometimes in smaller battles. Most infantry squads and similar would use Horde Stats. Lone Terror would be for those true war machines and their crew - catapults, cannons or early tanks. Note, for Willpower trait or typical Resolve + Composure dicepool, use twice Willpower/Scene number. It's coming from this official rule:

        Originally posted by CoD, p. 144
        For resisted actions, use All Other Pools value as resistance Attribute unless Best Dice Pool or Worst Dice Pool actions would be more relevant.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-31-2017, 09:13 AM.


        My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
        LGBT+ through Ages
        LGBT+ in CoD games

        Comment


        • #5
          Was today on interesting lecture about how superstitions have impacted battles in history. Weird astronomical events, odd chain of developments, great speeches of army leaders.

          Morale – Signs, Omens and Speeches

          Spirit in soldiers hearts can win or lose the battle. Prophecy from night before conflict can foresee the resolution of combat. Maybe bad star showing on the sky, or unfortunate reading of oracle, is not always winning of the particular side – but it surely impact the flow of battle. Also, leaders of each army, doing particular speech before battle, can influence his army winning or losing.

          Mechanics
          Sings and Omens are constant bonus or penalty for particular side of army that understand it’s meaning – more of army members is taking particular Omen to their heart, modifier is higher for this side. They range from +/- 5 to each Resolving the Turn rolls, judged by Storyteller. Prophetic Dreams and similar powers from supernatural members of army can gives their usage as bonus to their side actions – in number of dots of this power taken. Exception are powers like Prophetic Dreams for Cathalith that do not have dots rating – then use half of Supernatural Tolerance trait of this character ( rounded down ) as modifier to this army for whole battle.

          Speeches of army leaders are made as Building Equipment, only those bonuses are constant for each army till the end of battle. Most are made based on Persuasion Skill rolls.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-10-2018, 06:25 AM.


          My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ through Ages
          LGBT+ in CoD games

          Comment


          • #6
            I present Battle Objections to you. I also edited topic opening post with new mechanics.

            Battle Objections
            Some actions or goals are crucial to winning the Battle. Typical are 'breaching the walls', 'taking over hilltop', 'killing enemy general' or 'destroying supplies of enemy'. Storyteller may judge that some actions are worth automatic Accumulated Success by fulfilling them by one army. They typically give 1-3 Accumulated Success per goal fulfilled.
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-10-2018, 06:40 AM.


            My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
            LGBT+ through Ages
            LGBT+ in CoD games

            Comment


            • #7
              I see this is really old, so sorry if this counts as a necro.

              I like what I'm seeing, but I do want to comment on one part:

              "Speeches of army leaders are made as Building Equipment, only those bonuses are constant for each army till the end of battle. Most are made based on Persuasion Skill rolls."

              Persuasion? I think you should change that to Expression. 'Speeches' is an example Skill Specialty for the Expression Skill, and inspiring crowds with the Inspiring Merit is Presence + Expression.


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                \I]"Speeches[/I] of army leaders are made as Building Equipment, only those bonuses are constant for each army till the end of battle. Most are made based on Persuasion Skill rolls."

                Persuasion? I think you should change that to Expression. 'Speeches' is an example Skill Specialty for the Expression Skill, and inspiring crowds with the Inspiring Merit is Presence + Expression.
                No, it's deliberately Persuasion. I almost not using Expression Skill, as it's 'Dance, Music, Singing' Skill most character's do not need. The Persuasion is used here as this Skill is about using motives of your listener to do what you want him to do. Remember that seduction is also under Persuasion as a roll.

                'Speech to motivate troops before battle' works more or less as seduction on the mass scale.
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-07-2019, 12:54 AM.


                My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                LGBT+ through Ages
                LGBT+ in CoD games

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                  No, it's deliberately Persuasion. I almost not using Expression Skill, as it's 'Dance, Music, Singing' Skill most character's do not need. The Persuasion is used here as this Skill is about using motives of your listener to do what you want him to do. Remember that seduction is also under Persuasion as a roll.

                  'Speech to motivate troops before battle' works more or less as seduction on the mass scale.
                  Sorry but that's quite simply inaccurate. Expression is more than just singing, dancing and making music. It's also used for writing and speech. It's used for inspiring (Presence + Expression) and for making rational arguments / appealing to reason (Intelligence + Expression).

                  As I pointed out, 'speeches' specifically falls under the purfew of Expression, and inspiring a crowd is specifically a Presence + Expression roll.

                  You don't persuade soldiers to fight or fight better, they already want to fight or know they have to. You don't seduce soldiers to fight better either, unless you're an army prostitute I guess. No, you INSPIRE them to fight and fight well. And inspiring through a speech is Presence + Expression.

                  I'm not making this up, it's in the book.

                  If you know how to use Expression and the ST knows what it can be used for, the Skill comes up extremely often on Social characters. My Julii, who is an army general and was part of the Legio Mortuum in a Fall of the Camarilla game, uses Expression all the time, and not just for Dominate. He uses it to inspire his coterie, his army of ghouls, and to give speeches at the local council. He uses it to write letters to convince his peers to work with him, and to make rational arguments during debates. He uses it to write poetry in his spare time and also uses it to Mesmerize people with Dominate. It's my most rolled Skill in that game.
                  Last edited by Ventrue Life; 04-07-2019, 03:07 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post

                    Sorry but that's quite simply inaccurate. Expression is more than just singing, dancing and making music. It's also used for writing and speech. It's used for inspiring (Presence + Expression) and for making rational arguments / appealing to reason (Intelligence + Expression).

                    As I pointed out, 'speeches' specifically falls under the purfew of Expression, and inspiring a crowd is specifically a Presence + Expression roll.

                    You don't persuade soldiers to fight or fight better, they already want to fight or know they have to. You don't seduce soldiers to fight better either, unless you're an army prostitute I guess. No, you INSPIRE them to fight and fight well. And inspiring through a speech is Presence + Expression.

                    I'm not making this up, it's in the book.

                    If you know how to use Expression and the ST knows what it can be used for, the Skill comes up extremely often on Social characters. My Julii, who is an army general and was part of the Legio Mortuum in a Fall of the Camarilla game, uses Expression all the time, and not just for Dominate. He uses it to inspire his coterie, his army of ghouls, and to give speeches at the local council. He uses it to write letters to convince his peers to work with him, and to make rational arguments during debates. He uses it to write poetry in his spare time and also uses it to Mesmerize people with Dominate. It's my most rolled Skill in that game.

                    Yup. I completely agree.


                    MorosMatters

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      I almost not using Expression Skill,
                      Uhh...why?

                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      as it's 'Dance, Music, Singing' Skill most character's do not need.
                      Ah.

                      This is you creating your own problem - you've taken away core aspects of Expression touched on by Ventrue Life above, and then avoid the skill because what you've left it with doesn't seem useful to most characters. If you allow the skill to govern the abilities it does per RAW, it's suddenly more useful to more characters, and that problem goes away.
                      Last edited by lnodiv; 04-07-2019, 11:43 AM.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X