Using "Social Manuevering"

[Prince of the Night]

Thoughts on Soft leverage?

is going on a quest for someone valid

or in princess giving them a collection of seeds.

Not sure what other options their are.

Or other things not involving a merit.

The MG fair enough. You raise some good points.

[The MG]

Ah. I misunderstood you, then.

Maybe I overreacted a little. If you want to use a bunch of rules for social maneuvering at your table, that’s cool. But there’s no way I would allow another character (an NPC or especially another PC) to convince my character to do something they really didn’t want to do, barring supernatural abilities of course. I mean, I guess it’s okay if you want to use it to simulate PCs trying to convince NPCs, but even then I think roleplaying is a better alternative.

There are a few things to note here, I think.

The first is that the Maneuvering system is primarily for convincing NPCs, with convincing PCs being an explicitly optional part of the system. Even if it applies, a PC can always get out of being convinced by offering something else instead, an option that's simply not there for NPCs.

The second is that Social Maneuvering isn't supposed to substitute for roleplaying, but to ground it in the mechanics and present a greater spectrum of progress than the simple pass/fail of a single Social roll.

The third thing... Well, "just roleplay it" isn't really bad, but it can have the unintended side effect of rendering Social Attributes and Skills less important than they should be. It's one of the classic pitfalls of RPGs, actually, where it becomes about player skill rather than what the character is supposed to be good at. You can play a total physical badass without having any combat training, but with an all-roleplaying approach, you can't really play a slick negotiator without the actual ability to change your ST's mind.

You are of course entitled to your preferences, and I do get not wanting to memorize all of these subsystems – I, for one, am quite unfond of the ephemeral entity manifestation rules and their attendant flowchart.

No. Not that part. Reducing social interaction to a series of die rolls. Roleplaying it all out is more fun. Plus I personally hate memorizing a bunch of rules and numbers.

Maybe I overreacted a little. If you want to use a bunch of rules for social maneuvering at your table, that’s cool. But there’s no way I would allow another character (an NPC or especially another PC) to convince my character to do something they really didn’t want to do, barring supernatural abilities of course. I mean, I guess it’s okay if you want to use it to simulate PCs trying to convince NPCs, but even then I think roleplaying is a better alternative.

[The MG]

I think it’s dehumanizing, [...]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to unpack that. How is being convinced to do a thing dehumanizing?

What?

I’m not sure. I think someone tagged this thread in another thread and I followed it. I didn’t even notice the date.

And I didn’t just say that. I wrote two long paragraphs about why I thought this wasn’t a good idea. I think it’s dehumanizing, plus like I said barring supernatural powers I would never let my character be convinced against her will.

[Bunyip]

Guest you got 16 Likes, so there must be something to what you’re saying, but I usually prefer to use roleplaying to resolve these sorts of situations, with maybe one dice roll at the end (with a bonus if the PC has high Social stats or some other circumstance bonus).

Also, unless they were using supernatural powers, I would never allow another character to convince my character to do something she really didn’t want to do.

What value are you adding posting ‘I won’t use it’ four years after the thread ended?

Errol216 you got 16 Likes, so there must be something to what you’re saying, but I usually prefer to use roleplaying to resolve these sorts of situations, with maybe one dice roll at the end (with a bonus if the PC has high Social stats or some other circumstance bonus).

Also, unless they were using supernatural powers, I would never allow another character to convince my character to do something she really didn’t want to do.

[Charlaquin]

To use the marriage analogy, the spouse giving you the cold treatment or withholding sex would be forcing doors, I believe.

I would say that Forcing Doors would be pressuring them to make a decision right now. Something like "well, I just got my paycheck and one way or another I'm buying a tree today. What's it going to be, live or plastic?" If you also imply that they'll be sleeping on the couch if it's plastic, that's employing Hard Leverage.

[Ephsy]

This is an excellent write up and discussion. All I think it's missing is a discussion of Forcing Doors and after that I think you're golden.

To use the marriage analogy, the spouse giving you the cold treatment or withholding sex would be forcing doors, I believe.

[Leetsepeak]

This is an excellent write up and discussion. All I think it's missing is a discussion of Forcing Doors and after that I think you're golden.

[Charlaquin]

Another thing I think people overlook is the built-in ways to change the Impression. It's common to think of "neutral first impression" as the default, and everything above or below that being reserved for people who you have a positive or negative pre-existing relationship with, but Impressions represent the effort you've put into making the mark more amenable to your request. From CofD, page 82:

“Average impressions” call for weekly rolls, which makes the process very slow. Through play, your character may influence the interaction for a “good impression.” This may mean meeting in a pleasant environment, wearing appealing clothing, playing appropriate music, or otherwise making the situation more comfortable. This should not require a roll during a first impression, but requires one if attempted later. An excellent impression requires a roll to influence the situation. For example, you may use a Wits + Socialize to find the right people to invite to a party. Perfect impressions require further factors. It may involve leverage, or playing to a character’s Vice.
Hostile impressions come from tense first impressions, or threatening pitches. These interactions require you ma- nipulate the impression, or to force the Doors.

You don't automatically have a Perfect impression with your spouse just because you're married. To get that you have to put on that shirt they like, clean the house while they're out, and get them a gift or convince them that getting a real tree this Christmas will satisfy their ambition in some way (or whatever their Vice is). If you've been in a fight recently, of if you are obnoxious in how you try to convince them, you might have a Hostile impression and be unable to make any progress until you can get back on their good side.

[Aspel]

Personally, I like using Perfect Impression for more short term goals, since the Social Maneuvering system handles that pretty well if you don't stop to think about the impression level. Convincing the hotel clerk that you really need the key or something like that should take a little more haggling than just a single roll, but it also shouldn't take months. Then again, I haven't really looked at Chase rules yet, that might cover it better.

Something I've noticed--particularly in relation to some of the Mage powers, like Time--is that a lot of people think Doors are only removed if the target agrees with you. Some of Time's powers let you look into the future, play out all the tricks, and then open Doors without a roll. That kind of thing isn't just magicking the Doors away. It's just that you know the answer already so you can forgo the actual roll. This is true of any mundane things that let you open Doors as well: Just because you know how to open them doesn't mean they automatically open. If you look into the future and realize the perfect answer is to give them your watch... well, when you snap back to the present, but don't want to give them your watch, no Doors are going to open.

I also like using Social Maneuvering for non-standard things. For the Whipping Boys, I used Social Maneuvering to represent torture, which is their initiation.

[Errol216]

I have to strongly disagree with this sentiment. I do not think social maneuvering is inherently manipulative in a negative way. The key to effective social maneuvering is that you get your target to want to do the thing they're unwilling to do, initially. Now, clearly, the circumstances may vary, but if I'm convincing my wife to buy a real Christmas tree, maybe I can just take her on a romantic walk through the snow covered forest and show her how amazing that could all be.

So, yes. This is a legitimate ground to disagree on. But I actually anticipated this point of contention, which is why I qualified that sentence with "chances are". :P

Now, I think that using Social Maneuvering in order to convince your wife to buy a real Christmas tree is silly and probably undramatic. Mechanically, that seems like the kind of thing to roleplay out without rolling any dice at all. When the situation is dramatic, though, chances are pretty good that the fact that you want her to do something she doesn't want to do, and are willing to go through the effort of convincing her otherwise? I think that that's going to strain even a close relationship.

Social Maneuvering doesn't change the target's opinions about things. It changes their willingness to do something they didn't want to. Your wife doesn't actually want a real Christmas tree, at the end of the walk: she's just willing to let you get one. That's a huge difference, and while it's unlikely to be the last straw, it's a tally against your relationship's longevity.

Sure, it's possible that the target does genuinely change their opinion over the course of your persuasion. But that's not actually part of the system. That's why, when your target is a player's character, they can offer an alternative even when you're 100% successful. It's so that the system can resolve a success for one player while allowing both players to maintain their character's opinions on the matter.

Remember Goals. A Goal is always something the target will do. Not what the target will think.

Of course, RAW, you actually can change a target's mind using a single Persuasion roll. But Social Maneuvering does not require you to ever make a single Persuasion roll, which is good since plenty of characters don't even have a dot in that skill.

[Ephsy]

The key to effective social maneuvering is that you get your target to want to do the thing they're unwilling to do, initially.

This is literally the principle behind confidence tricks. The only difference is how malicious the intent behind the manipulation. Not all manipulation is.