So the White Wolf Q&A from Grand Masquerade is up

[Resplendent Fire]

Right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fhpXrrLBsI

About 20 minutes in, there's a question about the old vs. new World of Darkness. Shane DeFreest makes a comment to the effect that the World of Darkness was designed as a world first and then a game, but that the Chronicles of Darkness was designed as a game first, and that this is a flaw. I'm not sure what to think wrt that, given that I generally like ChroD versions of games more than CWoD versions. Martin Ericsson's response is a bit kinder to ChroD.

I'm not trying to pick an argument or anything here, but I am wondering what people think about the commentary.

[lnodiv]

Honestly I've seen nothing but tasteless remarks re: ChroD from them since the acquisition.

I'm just super grateful they've let OPP continue to do their thing, because if they hadn't, I'd have had to find a new hobby. Games in the style of CWoD are completely and totally unenjoyable to me.

[milo v3]

*Facedesk*

[Resplendent Fire]

It struck me as a bit... off... that Shane would make comments about Onyx Path's work like that.

I don't really see ChroD as being "game first, then setting" in the way Shane said it was. I mean clearly it was developed and evolved differently from the CWoD in a lot of ways, many of which involved applying lessons learned when CWoD was the thing. I don't think they were perfect as such - I'm glad ChroD games are getting a second edition, and for example I much prefer Vampire's second edition to first edition.

But all that aside, I've never really tried to compare the two very explicitly, beyond the fact that I just like Vampire and Werewolf better in ChroD than CWoD (I still need to read Mage and Changeling). Why I like them better is due to thematic matters and the kind of emotional mood they evoke in both the core books and the supplements. And there's not really any "metaplot," which I got tired of by the time CWoD had hit Gehenna/Apocalypse/Ascension/etc. I still have a lot of nostalgic love for these games, and would still run (I am thinking of a CWoD V20 Vampire game right now) and play them, I am more inclined to turn to ChroD in general.

[stylanski]

Fair warning, unpopular opinion follows.

The Q&A provided an interesting insight into why US politics is such a messed up place to dwell in or ponder about. They talked about all those great things they want to show in their games, how corporate corruption and control of politics has poisoned our society and environment, how politics is a rigged game, how class war is still a thing, how racism and sexism is an abomination perpetuated by the need to keep the herd separated (in a sort of branching out way, the system has even its own victims attacking other victims of the system).

As an active leftist, I don't want to perpetuate the false sense that the world is heading some place pleasant. I lived through the capitalist exploitation of several countries to know better. As a vegan, I don't want to hide away the ugly truths of the meat industry, I wanna play a werewolf that rips apart a Pentex executive for fucking with Gaia. As a feminist, I want to see the face of that smug Tremere sexist, when he realizes my female character is about to diablerize his sorry ass.

The audience kept repeating the same mantras about gender politics and white privilege. I am not white (at least not of European or North American descent anyway). It was uncomfortable because I now kinda get why someone would be satisfied with Clinton running for the presidency, despite being a warmongering, corporate sell out and threat to the globe. I already knew the amount of ignorance it takes to support Trump (a lying psychopath). It really pains me because of what could've been, a kind of generalized struggle against the monster and its many heads (in the event of a Bernie Sanders nomination by the Dems).

And I'm fucking glad WW wants to bring Punk back. I don't want to feel safe in the system, I want to see it go fuck itself.

Edit: In case anyone's wondering, I would be voting for Stein if I were a US citizen.

[Malus]

Can't watch Youtube atm, can you provide us with direct quotes? From both Shane and Ericsson?

[dxanders]

I'm going to assume the best of his statement, and there is some truth to it.

The WoD, for better and worse, was all about the world building. The further it went along, the more it became about the things in the world and how characters interact with that canon than it was about establishing mood or creating a vehicle for GMs and players to build their own worlds. Who do your characters side with in the Camarilla/Sabbat war? How do they interact with vampire Al Capone? Will they meet Caine? It became more and more prevalent as the game advanced and metaplot tended to take center stage. The story moved forward as basically an editorial-level chronicle, and characters figured out how they fit into the cogs of that grand scope. The tagline was always "This is our world, but darker", but the further and further the game went on, the less and less that was true. It was more "This is a high urban fantasy setting that kind of-sort of looks like our world". (There's nothing wrong with that, of course, and I have a lot of love for the earnest and sometimes goofy aspects of the world).

ChroD is more of a toolkit. It gives you themes and moods and mechanics that accommodate those. It provides template organizations and lets you figure out how those interact with each other. The four organizations in Requiem, for instance, can be mixed and matched innumerable ways to create distinct settings for any city. Focusing on the city/regional level makes it a setting-neutral game, which I actually find very refreshing. There's no long, tangled canon history describing the origins of vampirism or the history of the War of Rage. There's just myths and shaky historiography that might or might not be true. Even the blue books are designed in a more modular way. Look at Precinct 13 or Damnation City. They have sample templates in there, but they're designed to be modular rather than world-building supplements. I think it basically is a game-first thing, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all. In fact, I prefer it.

I'm giving the dude benefit of the doubt and assuming that was his intent.

Edit: Never mind. Just read it. They're very wrong, and those comments were insulting. I love the cWoD, but it's silly to hear them talking about it with such pretensions. I mean, I was glad that they tried to be progressive with their books, but in retrospective, a lot of their attempts at being forward thinking were silly and shallow and posturing.

[nofather]

It's the Grand Masquerade, celebrating the 25th Anniversary of old World of Darkness. I'm surprised anyone even brought up Chronicles, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was in a negative light. As it is it sounds like someone who doesn't have much experience with Chronicles, based solely on Resplendent Fire's post.

[dxanders]

It's the Grand Masquerade, celebrating the 25th Anniversary of old World of Darkness. I'm surprised anyone even brought up Chronicles, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was in a negative light. As it is it sounds like someone who doesn't have much experience with Chronicles, based solely on Resplendent Fire's post.

And I know, weirdly, there still seems to be a lot of factionalism about "which is better". I see it in players in my city, where that whole "my game is better than your game" stance is pretty militant and aggressive, on both sides of the fence.

[nofather]

And I know, weirdly, there still seems to be a lot of factionalism about "which is better". I see it in players in my city, where that whole "my game is better than your game" stance is pretty militant and aggressive, on both sides of the fence.

While there's other reasons, there's people on both sides who believe that their side isn't getting enough attention due to the other. Not just in terms of books, but if everyone in town is playing the other game, it's going to be harder to get people to come play yours.

[dxanders]

While there's other reasons, there's people on both sides who believe that their side isn't getting enough attention due to the other. Not just in terms of books, but if everyone in town is playing the other game, it's going to be harder to get people to come play yours.

Oh yeah, there's absolutely a level of that. I know my group (who skew a bit younger) look at the cWoD as very "edgelord": lots of trenchcoats and katanas and gold-plated desert eagles, but the majority of gamers in town are staunchly cWoD.

I grew up with the cWoD and still have a lot of fondness for it, but I think a lot of that is nostalgia.

[Vent0]

Oh yeah, there's absolutely a level of that. I know my group (who skew a bit younger) look at the cWoD as very "edgelord": lots of trenchcoats and katanas and gold-plated desert eagles, but the majority of gamers in town are staunchly cWoD.

I grew up with the cWoD and still have a lot of fondness for it, but I think a lot of that is nostalgia.

Some of it might just be simple human factionalism - what I like is better, and anything other must be worse. But game systems can each have their strengths. They're only better or worse when meeting specific tastes or tasks.

[dxanders]

Some of it might just be simple human factionalism - what I like is better, and anything other must be worse. But game systems can each have their strengths. They're only better or worse when meeting specific tastes or tasks.

Agreed. ChroD is basically what I want at this point in my life, but I understand the appeal of CoD too. I'll probably pick up the fifth edition. I doubt I'll get the chance to play it, but it will be a nice bit of nostalgia at the least.

And there's most definitely a bit of just factionalism. See DC vs. Marvel and console wars.

[Charlaquin]

Honestly, I think White Wolf is just trying to score points with cWoD fans by down-talking ChroD. They kind of have been since the beginning. The very "One World of Darkness" pitch reads like something trying to win over people who resented the split between classic and new. Re-naming nWoD made sense, but it's also a gesture that says "this isn't the real World of Darkness." Martin's comments in that one interview about how "the fans" hated nWoD were very telling as to what fans they are interested in catering to. And this "WoD is a world first and a game second, ChroD is a game first and a world second" thing sounds like something only a person who knows nothing about ChroD and is just going by what they've heard from people who skimmed the original Requiem, Forsaken, and Awakening core books would say. Which I'm pretty sure is not true of Shane, which leads me to suspect he's just saying it to win over cWoD fans who that is true of.

[nofather]

'Lets make World of Darkness great again.'

Still, if it gets people excited about the game, good for them.