Why Do You Think Beast is Good/Bad?

[Satchel]

On a similar note…

[The song is] largely about sanctuary, about this idea that - to offer someone a place to go that is safe, that is safe for whoever they are and whatever has happened in their lives. That's a profound notion, y'know. 'Cause it's what you want. It's what you get, as a young child if you have good parents, is, "You have a sanctuary here, you are safe with us." Heavy thing to say to people, "You are safe with us." It's like a responsibility, but it's also…

It's a big promise. It's usually one that most people can only fulfill for so long, because you can't protect people, but you can say, "I'll do what I can," and that in itself is pretty deep. Y'know, the fact that the house in the song sounds like it's full of people who might or might not be the best of people? This is something I would find among doper friends, that, like, they will rob you and each other, but they also - there's an extent of protection, there's a clannishness that can feel real safe in an unsafe time. You can go, "Well, Dave will rob me if I fall asleep, but he will protect me in case we run into trouble."

[ArcaneArts]

Sorry for the minor rez, but I wanted to put this somewhere just 'cuz and this thread seemed good for it.

"Holy places are dark places. It is life and strength, not knowledge and words, that we get in them. Holy wisdom is not clear and thin like water, but thick and dark like blood."
-C.S. Lewis, 'Till We Have Faces

[Nyrufa]

Also a point of order: If this topic is really all that enthralling, consider taking to another thread. We're veering deeply off the point.

Humanity Is Overrated

There we go!

[ArcaneArts]

Also a point of order: If this topic is really all that enthralling, consider taking to another thread. We're veering deeply off the point.

[Resplendent Fire]

Just as a point of order, many of humanity's vaunted advantages are tropes more than reality.

[Dusksage]

Was pointing out the similarities in point 1. I see the message that it was trying to convey about humanity, but I also see the error in such a philosophy. Yes, humans are adaptable, but they never consider their enemy might be the same. Hell, there are many powers and abilities across multiple splats that are specifically designed to adapt to their environment; and they have the potential ability to develop brand new powers over time through practice and study.


On the subject of humans being effective at hunting monsters, I think the anime Shiki, is a perfect example of what happens when a bunch of terrified humans unite against a monstrous invasion.

long story short - Mob Justice: humans are the real monsters.

Very fair point. Perhaps in some ways we're arguing the same point from both sides? Just like monsters better not underestimate humans, so too must humans never underestimate monsters. Pride comes before the fall, no matter who or what.

Along that line of thinking there is one thing I forgot to mention regarding humans, specifically the Hunter Conspiracies. Given the need humans will find a way to develop or steal supernatural powers of their own. Just like nothing stops a Mage from dropping a bomb on humans, nothing stops a human from casting a ritual on a Mage. To be fair though, some splats are far better suited for different skills and abilities, but the potential is there. That's why the Conspiracies are so terrifying.

[Nyrufa]

Nyrufa,

I'm a bit confused at point one because it does sum up my argument to a point but has no counter argument. Are you agreeing with me on that point? Just pointing out the similarities? Tiny bit confused at that part.

Anyways the fine detail between that and point two is not that humanity is superior to monsters because they are weaker than them and are desperate enough to use extreme force against them. My point was that any monster who dismisses a human because of their own belief in supernatural supremacy is in for a rude awakening when they see just how capable humans are at hunting monsters.

Was pointing out the similarities in point 1. I see the message that it was trying to convey about humanity, but I also see the error in such a philosophy. Yes, humans are adaptable, but they never consider their enemy might be the same. Hell, there are many powers and abilities across multiple splats that are specifically designed to adapt to their environment; and they have the potential ability to develop brand new powers over time through practice and study.


On the subject of humans being effective at hunting monsters, I think the anime Shiki, is a perfect example of what happens when a bunch of terrified humans unite against a monstrous invasion.

long story short - Mob Justice: humans are the real monsters.

1 most of the time supernaturals have a hard time getting im high position of power vampire sleep doing the day werewolf are ticking time bombs Don't even think of Promethean mummys sleep even more then vampire

1 - Vampires have been involved in controlling a shadow government for thousands of years and have one clan (Ventrue) who is specifically dedicated to holding positions of power. They also have another clan (Daeva), who are masters at social manipulation. You really think with all that time, experience, and machinations that there are no vampires with access to WMD's?


2 - Most Werewolves don't seem to particularly care enough about civilization to worry about technology. But then again, they don't really need to. They command the powers of nature itself; and everybody knows just how destructive mother nature can be when she's pissed at us.


3 - Prometheans, as I have been lead to believe, are on the same level as Scions. Meaning that you're going to need military grade weapons and a whole lot of hunters to be anything more than a minor annoyance to them. Last time I heard, they were strong enough to pick up a commercial airliner and hurl it through a skyscraper!


4 - I don't know much about mummies, but I understand that they A) can not be permanently destroyed, and B) have a literal cult following who protects and serves them. Religious authority can be even more dangerous than political authority, especially when you indoctrinate more people under your control.

[Dusksage]

@Jakondite,

Have you heard of the Barret Comission (might be miss-spelled)?

Because that's why Kindred don't try that shit anymore. It's way easier and less conspicuous to target their secretaries. Nobody in power cares about the secretaries.

[Dusksage]

Nyrufa,

I'm a bit confused at point one because it does sum up my argument to a point but has no counter argument. Are you agreeing with me on that point? Just pointing out the similarities? Tiny bit confused at that part.

Anyways the fine detail between that and point two is not that humanity is superior to monsters because they are weaker than them and are desperate enough to use extreme force against them. My point was that any monster who dismisses a human because of their own belief in supernatural supremacy is in for a rude awakening when they see just how capable humans are at hunting monsters.

[Ameraaaaaa]

And never said it was by a large margin that humens are great

[Ameraaaaaa]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh good point but never said that humens are the best that mages but now thinking about it maybe demens and werewolfs to otherwise humens are best and mages are what humens should be if it weren't for the enaercs

[Jakondite]

2 things
1 most of the time supernaturals have a hard time getting im high position of power vampire sleep doing the day werewolf are ticking time bombs Don't even think of Promethean mummys sleep even more then vampire
demen mage beast and changing are the only ones that can take position of power
so how do they get bomb
2numbers are still an advantage hell maybe We're better because of breeding so much

Um... Just saying, who needs to be in a position of power when you can just lace the senator's drink with vampire blood and let them do all the work for you?

[Ameraaaaaa]

2 things
1 most of the time supernaturals have a hard time getting im high position of power vampire sleep doing the day werewolf are ticking time bombs Don't even think of Promethean mummys sleep even more then vampire
demen mage beast and changing are the only ones that can take position of power
so how do they get bomb
2numbers are still an advantage hell maybe We're better because of breeding so much

[Nyrufa]

Alright, I love Beast and supernaturals just like everyone else here. But don't get too cocky.

I believe Ameraaaaaa's point was that there's a very good reason why Humans are feared by literally all other supernatural splats: They frustratingly adapt to their situations, and when determined are capable of accomplishing feats that would be normally improbable. I know earlier in the discussion their intelligence and technology was pretty much openly dismissed in favor of supernatural resilience and powers, and that's bogus because bombs count as technology and are a byproduct of human intelligence. And all supernatural splats will either die from explosions, or be fucked up in ways that they wish they would have died. Just like anything else caught in an explosion.

Point Number 1 - That's basically the message that Alucard (Hellsing Ultimate) believes in. The reason why humans are so great is because they are weak, and yet they somehow manage to defeat opponents leagues above their abilities through determination and adaptability. The monsters fail because they're too dependent on their vaunted powers and forget how to survive without them.


Point Number 2 - Nobody (or at least not me) was discrediting human technology and adaptability. What I was arguing was the fact that all of these other splats have the same capability in regards to human technology. In fact, Mages are even superior in that regard, since they're the ones who figured out how the universe works. Sure, a human could drop a bomb on a supernatural population. But guess what? A supernatural could also drop a bomb on a human population.



In almost every horror monster genre, you'll see the proudly toted message that human ingenuity and willpower can save the day in the face of overwhelming evil. But what they always fail to think about is what happens when that overwhelming evil is just as smart, just as adaptable, and possesses the combat effectiveness of an entire squad of soldiers. All of the sudden that human ingenuity is looking pretty shit when you've got what equates to super soldiers utilizing the same tactics against us.

And what makes you think the monsters aren't desperate to survive? If they believed themselves to be unstoppable juggernauts, then they wouldn't have any reason to hide in the shadows. No, they know they're at a disadvantage, and they've taken precautions to circumnavigate this issue. They blend into human society, adapt its resources for their own use and manipulate their governments from behind the scenes while keeping the unwashed masses blissfully unaware of their own existence.


Overwhelming numbers, that is the only thing humans have going for them in the CoD. And most of the splats seem to agree this is the case. Or at least that's the explanation I got reading through their books on why they don't just conquer the world.

[Nyrufa]

Any open conflict with humans would drag in the other supernaturals, and they all know this.

True. If one species comes out to the world, then they ALL come out to the world. Which is why nobody's had the balls to try it, yet.


They don't want to be the scapegoat for when shit hits the fan.