[w/Princess] Odd Friends-Don't Mess with a Princess and Her Dragon

[The Kings Raven]

With family dinner I think there's two questions to answer:

1) Does this remove horror for the Beast? Hunger is Beast's primary source of personal horror. So while I think assisting a Troubadour as she hunts through the mall for outfits and sales to model for her fashion instagram would technially qualify as Family Dinner, I would suggest any Storyteller who sees the potential for that to come up in the game quickly rule against it. I know this skirts close to going against cannon, since helping a Mage with a mystery could be just as horror free, but a Storyteller would find it easy to create horror for Beasts in the Mage setting than in the Princess setting. The things Darkspawn do that horrify and ocassionally traumatise Princesses are not that different to things Beasts do. E.G. kill people then eat them.

2) Are we still talking about Beasts? A Beast who decides to feed exclusively through Family Dinner with Princesses has very little in common with other Beasts in terms of how they live their day to day life. And because so much of the Begotten's culture and worldview is built around justifying their day to day life the Family Dinner Beast isn't going to share that with them. I'd argue that a Beast who feeds through Family Dinner with Princesses is so different to regular Beasts that they're off topic for a thread about how Princesses & Beasts look at each other. Saying Princesses oppose Beasts, unless they give up everything about being a Beast and try to be a Princess instead is just a longer way of saying Princesses oppose Beasts.

[Draca]

I will concede on point 2... But that isn't the kind of Family Dinner I even mentioned At All...

Meanwhile on point 1, that last part, only Predators, and potentially Nemeses actually have a high likelihood of Killing people... (and then Predators, and maybe Collectors, eating them, Maybe...) I honestly don't see Tyrants, Ruiners, or Collectors Needing to do that.... Tyrants are about Powerplays and putting others down, Ruiners are about Breaking Stuff that belongs to people, and Collectors are about Getting Stuff that other people Want, Love, or even Need(that they then don't even need to care about after). Beasts Don't NEED to cause Trauma that will Last a Lifetime, they need to cause Fear, Fear is Temporary, will it teach the person a lesson about what they were afraid of? More than Likely, but is it going to scar them for life? Maybe, Maybe Not, depends on the Beast. Wasn't there a Whole Thread about Beasts Coping with having to hurt people, and how to do it in a Better way? Hell one of the concepts in the Character Concept thread is a Nemesis Cop...

I Definitely Concede that under Most Circumstances, a Beast who LOVES hurting people and just being a Beastly Beast isn't going to get along with Princesses. But there are Beasts out there trying to do good with what they have, and others that Fight what fate has Forced them to become, I'm sure that some of those would Jump at a chance to make Family Ties with a Princess, and if the Princess can find a Healthy way for the Beast to cope with being a Beast, I'm pretty sure they're going to want to as well... The title of this thread A Princess and her Dragon would very much work in that kind of Situation. Its basically Inverting the Tropes, and Yes Turning the Beast into Prince Adam... Its also Making a Symbiotic Relationship... >.>

I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, because you Most Certainly Aren't, I'm just saying that Beasts and Princesses don't necessarily have to Detest each other.... Besides its like saying that a Beast dropped into a Mage Campaign is going to have the same personal horror concerns as a Beast dropped into a Changeling campaign, or a Vampire Campaign.... Remember Beasts are the Plug and Play Splat, they're meant to crossover into other splats campaigns, and if one is going to be going into a Princess Campaign, they're going to have different concerns from a game that is a Brood of Begotten.

Remember Beasts are Still People, they're not Human anymore, because their soul was eaten by a Horror, but they're still People, and Not all People are Monsters, in fact, isn't that one of the tropes that Beast was supposed to be inverting, that the Monster isn't necessarily the bad guy? Heck there's an example character in the book who is a dedicated nurse who does the job noone else wants and stays by the side of those dying alone, Not hurting them herself and in fact kicking the snot out of monsters who prey on the elderly... Again Beasts Don't Need to be Evil Monsters...

Edit: I do want to say that writing this post at 6:40 AM, on very little sleep, I may have gotten a bit emotional... but I'm too tired to clean up this mess... Just sorry if I come across antagonistically...

[Wormwood]

I will concede on point 2, that really is a very good point. and was the kind of thing I was really reading into from Arcane's original post, not saying that's where Arcane was going, just that ya the title alone, leads into that.

Meanwhile on point 1, that last part, only Predators, and potentially Nemeses actually have a high likelihood of Killing people... (and then Predators, and maybe Collectors, eating them, Maybe...) I honestly don't see Tyrants, Ruiners, or Collectors Needing to do that.... Tyrants are about Powerplays and putting others down, Ruiners are about Breaking Stuff that belongs to people, and Collectors are about Getting Stuff that other people Want or even Need(that they then don't even need to care about after)

I Definitely Concede that under Most Circumstances, they just aren't going to get along, a Full Blown believes in what they're doing or Just Loves Being a Beast Beast and a Princess, but I'm sure there are those out there that would Jump at a chance to make Family Ties with a Princess, and if the Princess can find a Healthy way for the Beast to be themselves, I'm sure they're going to want to as well. so the Title a Princess and her Dragon would very much work in that kind of Situation. Its basically Inverting the Tropes, and Yes Turning the Beast into Prince Adam... >.>

I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, because you Most Certainly Aren't, I'm just saying that Beasts and Princesses don't necessarily have to Detest each other....

Just wanted to point out that every beast might feed deeply through killing - a Tyrant might very well Demonstrate his superiority to others via killing one of them, one of the ravager examples given was a hitman, and it was pointed out ravagers prefer to leave someone alive to increase the despair, which does not exclude killing some. Predators are the most likely to kill, but not the only ones.

[ArchonAres]

Just wanted to point out that every beast might feed deeply through killing - a Tyrant might very well Demonstrate his superiority to others via killing one of them, one of the ravager examples given was a hitman, and it was pointed out ravagers prefer to leave someone alive to increase the despair, which does not exclude killing some. Predators are the most likely to kill, but not the only ones.

Granted, but a low sat beast can skirt around a lower dice pool more easily. There is no need to kill -d but there are advantages to it.

[Malus]

Granted, but a low sat beast can skirt around a lower dice pool more easily. There is no need to kill -d but there are advantages to it.

Killing is awful, but there's plenty of awful things to do that leave live victims, some of which many would consider far more cruel than an execution; but I don't think I need to get to specifics.

[The Kings Raven]

Meanwhile on point 1, that last part, only Predators, and potentially Nemeses actually have a high likelihood of Killing people...

Killing people was just one example.

Beasts Don't NEED to cause Trauma that will Last a Lifetime, they need to cause Fear, Fear is Temporary, will it teach the person a lesson about what they were afraid of? More than Likely, but is it going to scar them for life? Maybe, Maybe Not, depends on the Beast.

Remember that scaring someone without doing lasting damage isn't easy. Every time you pick a target there's a chance they have a weak heart, or a buried trauma, or they'll panic in the heat of the moment and things will get out of hand, or they are just more vulnerable than you expected. When a Beast feeds on someone they're gambling with someone else's mental health, and they're asserting that their nature gives them the right to play with other people's lives.

And even if the Beast is good at avoiding lasting harm. It's a matter of principal that you don't play with other people's lives, and Princesses take their principals very seriously.

I'm sure that some of those would Jump at a chance to make Family Ties with a Princess, and if the Princess can find a Healthy way for the Beast to cope with being a Beast, I'm pretty sure they're going to want to as well... The title of this thread A Princess and her Dragon would very much work in that kind of Situation. Its basically Inverting the Tropes, and Yes Turning the Beast into Prince Adam... Its also Making a Symbiotic Relationship... >.>

Isn't that what I said? Question two: Are we still talking about Beasts? If he's now Prince Adam we probably not.

I mean sure, Princesses will get on with Prince Adam and some Beasts want to be Prince Adam. But the thread is titled a Princess and her Beast; not a Princess and her Prince.

The majority of Beasts, the ones who reject the narrative that the monster is the bad guy, the princess symbolises society, and the hero is the good guy. Those Beasts are going to argue that the typical Beastal behaviour of spreading fear and teaching lessons is good; and Princesses aren't going to agree.

Besides its like saying that a Beast dropped into a Mage Campaign is going to have the same personal horror concerns as a Beast dropped into a Changeling campaign, or a Vampire Campaign....

The problem is that in Mage, Vampire, and Changeling, a large part of the horror comes from what you are. In Beast the horror comes from what you are. So with a bit of tweaking you can plug a different "what you are" into Beast.

In Princess the Horror comes from the monsters you fight. However Beasts aren't really equipped to experience horror from the monsters they fight. The monsters Princesses fight are Kin to a Beast. Most of the things Darkspawn do to their victims are a valid way for Beasts to feed.

[Vent0]

Heh. This brings up the idea for a small Chronicle or story:

The Beast is near literally a dragon - Ugallu Collector with a draconic Horror and towering, prison like Lair that captures the literal Princess to lock up in their Tower/Lair. They have a familiar, yet philosophically antagonistic relationship (each trying to convince the other that their worldview is the correct one). For added humor, throw in a Hero that desires the Princess (who is probably non-plussed, at best).

[Mangaholic13]

Been reading this thread a while, and wanted to toss in my opinion:

With family dinner I think there's two questions to answer:

2) Are we still talking about Beasts? A Beast who decides to feed exclusively through Family Dinner with Princesses has very little in common with other Beasts in terms of how they live their day to day life. And because so much of the Begotten's culture and worldview is built around justifying their day to day life the Family Dinner Beast isn't going to share that with them. I'd argue that a Beast who feeds through Family Dinner with Princesses is so different to regular Beasts that they're off topic for a thread about how Princesses & Beasts look at each other. Saying Princesses oppose Beasts, unless they give up everything about being a Beast and try to be a Princess instead is just a longer way of saying Princesses oppose Beasts.

First of all, it has never been established how a Beast would use Family Dinner to feed with Princesses. Second, even if they used that to feed almost exclusively, that doesn't mean a Beast will be abandoning being a Beast, especially because another important part of being a Beast is the concept of Family as much as (maybe even more than) Fear.

Killing people was just one example.

Remember that scaring someone without doing lasting damage isn't easy. Every time you pick a target there's a chance they have a weak heart, or a buried trauma, or they'll panic in the heat of the moment and things will get out of hand, or they are just more vulnerable than you expected. When a Beast feeds on someone they're gambling with someone else's mental health, and they're asserting that their nature gives them the right to play with other people's lives.

And even if the Beast is good at avoiding lasting harm. It's a matter of principal that you don't play with other people's lives, and Princesses take their principals very seriously.

Okay, WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK BEASTS NEED TO KILL TO FEED? A Beast that only feeds by killing is little more than an INSATIABLE with a Lair! Killing should be a last resort, not the first choice.

Second, and I think this is an important point that seems to have been forgotten: BEASTS DO NOT. GET. A. CHOICE. They have to feed, because if they don't, their Horror will go around ravaging random peoples' dreams in order to Sate it's hunger, terrorizing everybody and attracting Heroes. The terror and fear of playing as a Beast is playing a monster that must hurt people, whether you want to or not.

Third, playing with people's lives, aren't many kinds supernaturals in Chronicles of Darkness guilty of this? Including Princesses?
Vampires make a game of manipulating humans, governments, and each others.
Mages will gladly use/kill Sleepers if it gets them closer to Supernatural Truths, and treat other supernaturals as little more than research specimens.
Werewolves can and will kill/maim/terrorize humans if it puts a stop to any uppity spirits.
Prometheans, unfortunately, generate a Hate Plague that affects even other Supernaturals.
Changelings will do anything if it means never having to return to their Keeper.
Sin-Eaters often damn the expense or consequences to normal humans in pursuit of their goals.
Hunters can end up destroying countless lives, simply by touching the wrong thing.
Demons offer humans deals, often radically altering another person(s) life as the price.
Mummies and their Cults manipulate humanity and history from the shadows, all in the name of their Nameless Masters.
And Princesses, in the name of the Greater Good, command humanity to pursue their vision of hope.

I don't deny that Beasts play with people's lives, but they sure as hell aren't the only ones guilty of that.

Isn't that what I said? Question two: Are we still talking about Beasts? If he's now Prince Adam we probably not.

I mean sure, Princesses will get on with Prince Adam and some Beasts want to be Prince Adam. But the thread is titled a Princess and her Beast; not a Princess and her Prince.

The majority of Beasts, the ones who reject the narrative that the monster is the bad guy, the princess symbolises society, and the hero is the good guy. Those Beasts are going to argue that the typical Beastal behaviour of spreading fear and teaching lessons is good; and Princesses aren't going to agree.

The problem is that in Mage, Vampire, and Changeling, a large part of the horror comes from what you are. In Beast the horror comes from what you are. So with a bit of tweaking you can plug a different "what you are" into Beast.

In Princess the Horror comes from the monsters you fight. However Beasts aren't really equipped to experience horror from the monsters they fight. The monsters Princesses fight are Kin to a Beast. Most of the things Darkspawn do to their victims are a valid way for Beasts to feed.

Princess symbolise society and the hero being the good guy? Since when?
Princesses more symbolise the inner horror of trying to fix a broken world... All the while understanding how seemingly impossible their goal is, yet being unable to stop or abandon that goal. It is the burden of having Great Power coupled with Great Responsibility (to paraphrase a certain, fictional Uncle). It is being an idealist constantly forced to see just how much Reality doesn't conform to those ideals. To literally bare the weight of the world of ones shoulders, and never being allowed to shrug that weight off. While some of that Horror is indeed caused by external forces, it can also be just as much internal, just like other beings inhabiting Chronicles of Darkness.

Heck, I bet Beasts and Princesses can relate on one thing: they both know what it is like to have a voice within them that never lets them truly rest.

Now, do I think Beasts and Princesses can get along easily? Heck no! But I don't think it's impossible, and I definitely don't think they are inherently enemies either.

More on that later...

P.S.
Sorry if this sounded very angry and ranting, Kings Raven, I'm not trying to bash you.

==EDIT==
Don't know how my second line got absorbed into a quote block, but I fixed that.

[The Kings Raven]

First of all, it has never been established how a Beast would use Family Dinner to feed with Princesses.

Well however they do it, they wouldn't have to act like a monster to do it.

Second, even if they used that to feed almost exclusively, that doesn't mean a Beast will be abandoning being a Beast, especially because another important part of being a Beast is the concept of Family as much as (maybe even more than) Fear.

Beast: the Primordial doesn't use Family as a source of horror to anywhere near the same extent as it uses Hunger.

Princess symbolise society and the hero being the good guy? Since when?

The medieval ages if not earlier. Notice that princess has a small p in that sentence. In traditional depictions of things like St George and the dragon the princess symbolises society/order, the monster symbolises chaos, while the hero is a paragon of virtue.

The core concept of Beast (which I do not think it did very well) is challenging that assumption. But any Beast who lived and fed alongside Princesses would have to agree with that assumption. If they didn't think that eating people and kidnapping fair maidens is evil you won't find many Princesses willing to have you as a flatmate.

Sorry if this sounded very angry and ranting, Kings Raven, I'm not trying to bash you.

No worries.

Save

[Michael Brazier]

Heh. This brings up the idea for a small Chronicle or story:

The Beast is near literally a dragon - Ugallu Collector with a draconic Horror and towering, prison like Lair that captures the literal Princess to lock up in their Tower/Lair. They have a familiar, yet philosophically antagonistic relationship (each trying to convince the other that their worldview is the correct one). For added humor, throw in a Hero that desires the Princess (who is probably non-plussed, at best).

And at some point, an NPC tells the Hero "Thank you - but our Princess is in another castle!"

[The Kings Raven]

You had to go there didn't you ;p

Second, and I think this is an important point that seems to have been forgotten: BEASTS DO NOT. GET. A. CHOICE. They have to feed, because if they don't, their Horror will go around ravaging random peoples' dreams in order to Sate it's hunger, terrorizing everybody and attracting Heroes. The terror and fear of playing as a Beast is playing a monster that must hurt people, whether you want to or not.

Beast's victims don't get a choice. There's no "sign here if you consent to let a Tyrant to oppress you" forms to fill out.

If Beasts get sympathy for hurting people because they didn't get a choice. Why don't Beast's victims get sympathy for turning around and hurting a Beast in self defence because they didn't get a choice either?

And if it's ok for a Beast's victim to act in self defence, it's ok for a Princess to do so on their behalf. That's the whole point of having Princesses (and police). To do self defence on behalf of people who can't fight for themselves.

Third, playing with people's lives, aren't many kinds supernaturals in Chronicles of Darkness guilty of this?

They are. And you'll always find Princesses who'll stand up for those mortals. However only Vampire is as consistently guilty as Beast, and not many Princesses like Vampires.

And Princesses, in the name of the Greater Good, command humanity to pursue their vision of hope.

Wrong. Look at the Queen's:

• Hearts: Authority derives from the consent of the governed, not a magical crown that appears on your head.
• Diamonds: A Princess must be an educator, and an educator must teach people to use reason and think for themselves.
• Spades: Never, never, give anyone an order.
• Swords: Independence is a virtue.
• Clubs: Be adaptable, always seek a way to meet in the middle.

Commanding humanity is something the Radiant discourage and the Twilight encourage. There will be self policing against Princesses who play with mortal lives.

==EDIT==
Don't know how my second line got absorbed into a quote block, but I fixed that.

Responded.

[Paradim]

Beast's victims don't get a choice. There's no "sign here if you consent to let a Tyrant to oppress you" forms to fill out.

If Beasts get sympathy for hurting people because they didn't get a choice. Why don't Beast's victims get sympathy for turning around and hurting a Beast in self defence because they didn't get a choice either?

And if it's ok for a Beast's victim to act in self defence, it's ok for a Princess to do so on their behalf. That's the whole point of having Princesses (and police). To do self defence on behalf of people who can't fight for themselves.

Committing arson by setting the office on fire because of a red stapler and office change does seem like a bit of an over reaction, though...

[Mangaholic13]

*Realizes he's talking to one of the guys who created Princess the Hopeful*

...sigh...

You had to go there didn't you ;p

Beast's victims don't get a choice. There's no "sign here if you consent to let a Tyrant to oppress you" forms to fill out.

If Beasts get sympathy for hurting people because they didn't get a choice. Why don't Beast's victims get sympathy for turning around and hurting a Beast in self defence because they didn't get a choice either?

And if it's ok for a Beast's victim to act in self defence, it's ok for a Princess to do so on their behalf. That's the whole point of having Princesses (and police). To do self defence on behalf of people who can't fight for themselves.

They are. And you'll always find Princesses who'll stand up for those mortals. However only Vampire is as consistently guilty as Beast, and not many Princesses like Vampires.

Wrong. Look at the Queen's:

• Hearts: Authority derives from the consent of the governed, not a magical crown that appears on your head.
• Diamonds: A Princess must be an educator, and an educator must teach people to use reason and think for themselves.
• Spades: Never, never, give anyone an order.
• Swords: Independence is a virtue.
• Clubs: Be adaptable, always seek a way to meet in the middle.

Commanding humanity is something the Radiant discourage and the Twilight encourage. There will be self policing against Princesses who play with mortal lives.

Responded.

You're right The Kings Raven, just because Beasts don't get a choice doesn't their victims don't deserve any sympathy. Any idea to the contrary is just... just wrong. And I never should have brought the Radiant Queens into the generalization...

But then, how can a Beast feed? How can a Beast live? How can they stop their Horror from going on a feeding frenzy? Can they even? And how can a Beast and a Princess get along?

... Also, what do Noble think of Insatiables? That question has been nagging me since their introduction, because it makes me think of The Darkness almost...

Committing arson by setting the office on fire because of a red stapler and office change does seem like a bit of an over reaction, though...

I don't know what's sadder: the fact that I could see a Hero doing that, or that this has probably been done in real life.

Heh. This brings up the idea for a small Chronicle or story:

The Beast is near literally a dragon - Ugallu Collector with a draconic Horror and towering, prison like Lair that captures the literal Princess to lock up in their Tower/Lair. They have a familiar, yet philosophically antagonistic relationship (each trying to convince the other that their worldview is the correct one). For added humor, throw in a Hero that desires the Princess (who is probably non-plussed, at best).

That sounds like an awesome idea!

[The Kings Raven]

*Realizes he's talking to one of the guys who created Princess the Hopeful*

Michael Brazier is in this thread too.

But then, how can a Beast feed? How can a Beast live? How can they stop their Horror from going on a feeding frenzy? Can they even? And how can a Beast and a Princess get along?

Beast is game about seeing things from the monster's point of view (sort of, Beast was never thematically coherent even before a re-write confused things further). The moment you start asking about how to feed ethically you're already letting the human PoV in and thus diverging from Beast's core. Lessons aren't really a way to be more moral because they're not actually moral (that's somewhat cannon, thanks to Yuri's Group in Hunter)

In other words. The Princess' answer to how can a Beast live is "stop being a Beast, embrace human morality"* - at which point we're no longer talking about Beast: the Primordial.


* Mechanically it's fairly easy. You can hang out with Changelings and feed by buying tickets to a scary film. Though personally I strongly believe that if a charachter's goal is toe escape from hurting people it should be made into a worthy challenge.

[Master Aquatosic]

Also, could a Ravager and a Princess of Storms work together?