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New Family: Irkalla, Nightmare of the End

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post

    Perhaps a penalty on the Clash of Wills if you're trying to destroy an Anathema weapon/object?
    That's probably a solution, but I'm still not a fan of the idea. Anathema work best when the Beast is at High Satiety and the Horror is sleepy, while Atavisms are an expression of the Horror's might and work the opposite, with Satiety expenditure representing the Beast tapping into her Horror's rage and the power of her Lair. I do believe there should be no special treatment for Anathema when Atavisms are involved, I feel like there would be a conflict there. Anathemas are not mentioned once when speaking of Atavisms and the only heroic power that messes with those is the Real World Gift with an exceptional success.

    Either a general penalty or the Atavisms not destroying Anathema items if the Beast is at High Satiety are what might work and I will include one of those if you agree I'm mistaken, but in my perspective that does stride with the game notions as they currently are. Not saying I can't be wrong, of course.

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  • ajf115
    replied
    Originally posted by Cinder View Post
    It's fair. I'd say that, given the gradual damage it does take a little to destroy stuff and that gives warning to the supernaturally aware, but you do have a point. It's probably more balanced and also more dramatic, with the Beast spending Satiety to do feats that go beyond the mortal abilities by far.

    As for Anathema objects, I included them among the "objects enhanced by supernatural powers" that cause a Clash of Wills, but not clearly described it. Gotta deal with this issue where I don't write down some things because I think it's implied, it's a fault of mine. Totally immune though? Sorry, but I disagree with that. Other Atavisms don't take that as an issue, even those that allow to dish out huge amounts of destruction. They should provoke a Clash of Wills for sure, but if the Beast is strong enough to subvert the monomyth and break the hero's arsenal (or has a bigger dice pool and rolls ), then I think that should happen. Especially considering we now move the chance to destroy magical items only to the Satiety effect.
    Perhaps a penalty on the Clash of Wills if you're trying to destroy an Anathema weapon/object?

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I'm digging the new All is Dust. I'm not entirely sure about letting the Normal effect destroy magical items (Atavisms seem to avoid that with Low and Expenditure being when Clashes happen), and the implication by not including it in the Expenditure effect that it can just destroy supernatural items and all.

    I'd be tempted to just not let the Normal option completely destroy magical items (may deny magical function instead when they would have taken their last damage?), and put the Clash for completely breaking them in Expenditure.

    I also realized there should be a clause that you can't use All is Dust on things Anathema to you. Don't want to make Anathema too weak if you can just destroy any object oriented ones.
    It's fair. I'd say that, given the gradual damage it does take a little to destroy stuff and that gives warning to the supernaturally aware, but you do have a point. It's probably more balanced and also more dramatic, with the Beast spending Satiety to do feats that go beyond the mortal abilities by far.

    As for Anathema objects, I included them among the "objects enhanced by supernatural powers" that cause a Clash of Wills, but not clearly described it. Gotta deal with this issue where I don't write down some things because I think it's implied, it's a fault of mine. Totally immune though? Sorry, but I disagree with that. Other Atavisms don't take that as an issue, even those that allow to dish out huge amounts of destruction. They should provoke a Clash of Wills for sure, but if the Beast is strong enough to subvert the monomyth and break the hero's arsenal (or has a bigger dice pool and rolls ), then I think that should happen. Especially considering we now move the chance to destroy magical items only to the Satiety effect.
    Last edited by Cinder; 05-01-2018, 07:52 AM.

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  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Yeah that would be funny. A hero has a legendary gun or sword to use against You? Well it turned to dust, sorry. Now your beast has become an incarnate though the hero curb stomp battle

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I'm digging the new All is Dust. I'm not entirely sure about letting the Normal effect destroy magical items (Atavisms seem to avoid that with Low and Expenditure being when Clashes happen), and the implication by not including it in the Expenditure effect that it can just destroy supernatural items and all.

    I'd be tempted to just not let the Normal option completely destroy magical items (may deny magical function instead when they would have taken their last damage?), and put the Clash for completely breaking them in Expenditure.

    I also realized there should be a clause that you can't use All is Dust on things Anathema to you. Don't want to make Anathema too weak if you can just destroy any object oriented ones.

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    Cinder I may have missed a post that explains it , but the lesson of mortality is shared with predators isn't it? What separates the two
    Kinda. Predators are Beast that share the same Hunger across several Families, while the Irkalla (or Beast of other Families) color that Hunger with the Nightmare they embody. It is helpful to look at Hungers as what the Beast teach about or inflict while Family are how they do it. The combination of the two with the character's personality and background often gives the "Why?"

    Irkalla make for great Predators and Ravagers, because they do embody death and endings, but they do channel that through all sorts of Hungers and lessons (though those two are admittedly the most direct ones). It's something that deserved to be discussed and we worked on that across the topic, but I can point you towards the "Hungers" section and hope it provides good examples about how the nightmare of the Family does spread over the lessons of the various Hungers (though don't hesitate to ask for more clarifications, if needed).

    Irkalla do wonders as Predators because they're the End itself reminding people of mortality, but there are other lessons to be learned when taking the reminder of endings in consideration (or at least that's what I hope to have managed to describe with them).

    Hope that helps!
    Last edited by Cinder; 04-30-2018, 01:19 PM.

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  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Cinder I may have missed a post that explains it , but the lesson of mortality is shared with predators isn't it? What separates the two

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Dude, you nailed 2/3 solidly, no reason to be disappointed. You're a fan doing fan work, and you're incredibly receptive to criticism. Even All Is Dust isn't a complete loss if you can see a way to rework it to be better. I'm looking forward to what you come up with!
    Thanks for the kind words, they do mean a lot.

    Apologies if it took a little longer for me to finish this, but the Avengers movie happened on the way and took away some of my spare time. Let me know if it's an improvement.

    All Is Dust (2nd take)

    Embodiments of the end, the Irkalla deliver destruction and death with their mere presence. A Reaper is a fearsome monster that can annihilate its foes and make everything around it crumble, leaving only desolation in its path.

    Action: Reflexive, Instant (Satiety expenditure only)

    Dice Pool: Strength + Occult + Lair (Satiety expenditure only)

    Normal Effect: An aura of ruin surrounds the Beast, eroding away objects, structures and obstacles. All objects within a (Lair dots) yards radius from the Begotten suffer 1 point of Structure damage each minute, ignoring Durability. The damage applies after the time has passed, as the Atavism gradually corrupts it. The objects carried by the Beast are not subjected to this effect, but those carried by her allies still are, with the exception of her Broodmates. While the Beast herself might not show any clue about her nature while using the normal Satiety effect, the impact of the gradual damage caused by the Atavism is clearly supernatural. How it manifests depends on the Beast’s Horror: Irkalla often make objects age and rust at ridiculous speed, but other Begotten might make them crack out of nowhere or even cover them in cobwebs, corals and make them look how they would appear after decades of exposure. The effect can be turned on and off at the Beast’s discretion as a Reflexive action.


    Objects enhanced by magic or supernatural powers can be damaged but not completely destroyed by the normal and low Satiety effect. but Satiety expenditure does give the Beast a chance to do that.

    Furthermore, the Beast is immune to all penalties and Environmental Tilts that would impede her movement on the ground. Plants wither, rocks turn to dust and water evaporates as the Begotten approaches. The power is not strong enough to protect the Beast from everything, cannot be used to damage enemies and only works while the Begotten is on foot, but she has no longer to worry about being impeded, to a degree. As a rule of thumb, environmental hazards that can be compared to minor Lair Traits don't represent a problem, but anything more severe than that does. This only applies to movement: the Beast still suffers damage or other effects caused by walking or being exposed to hazards of any kind.



    Low Satiety: the decay caused by the Beast is now faster and more aggressive. The amount of damage to Structure raises to (Lair/2, minimum 1) per minute and the radius increases to (Lair x 2) yards.

    Additionally, the Begotten’s hunger is so strong that the Atavism is able to erode projectiles and deprive the precision of their trajectories. She gains an amount of additional Defense against all ranged attacks equal to her Lair. Bullets rust, arrows break mid-air and even supernatural attacks like flames or lightning suffocate when aimed at the Beast.

    Satiety Expenditure: with a gesture, the Beast lets out a wave of devastation and decay that lays waste to the surroundings. Begotten with this Atavism remind those around them of the futility of attachments and protections against the end. The objects and structures men build matter nothing and them, like people, will indeed be reduced to dust. The player spends a point of Satiety and rolls a special attack with Strength + Occult + Lair as dice pool. All items and buildings within (Lair) yards suffer a direct amount of damage to their Structure equal to the successes rolled. Mundane objects destroyed by the attack cannot be repaired. People caught within aren’t safe, as the decay can spread to their bodies after their tools and defenses are obliterated. If the damage of the Satiety expenditure effect exceed the Structure of the highest Durability object a person is wearing or holding, the exceeding damage is dealt to that person as direct aggravated damage. For example, if a character fighting against a Begotten has a Size 1, Durability 3 pistol with him (total Structure 4) and the Beast rolls seven successes, the pistol is destroyed and the character takes three points of aggravated damage. As a person’s possession crumble, they can’t do nothing but scream when the force that caused so does not stop there and gives her a taste of the end as well. When the skin cracks, flesh rots away, bones melt and those around you turn into dust carried by the wind, few can deny the might of the Begotten. Broodmates whose Lair is connected to that of the Begotten take no damage from the Satiety expenditure effect unless the Beast wishes so


    Objects enhanced by magic or supernatural powers (including those empowered by a Hero's Anathemas) are damaged normally, but before receiving the last point of damage to Structure, at Storyteller’s discretion, the Atavism provokes a Clash of Wills between their owner (or the source of their power) and the Beast. If the Beast loses, the objects are not destroyed and are immune to the Atavism’s normal and low Satiety effects for the remainder of the scene.

    If the Beast is tagged with an Anathema that manifests through an object of some kind (like Bane or Weaponbound, for example), that object is completely immune to all the ranks of this Atavism if the Beast is at High Satiety and the Begotten receives a -2 penalty to all Clash of Wills rolls made to determine if she's able to destroy it if she's at Normal Satiety
    Last edited by Cinder; 05-02-2018, 03:16 AM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Dude, you nailed 2/3 solidly, no reason to be disappointed. You're a fan doing fan work, and you're incredibly receptive to criticism. Even All Is Dust isn't a complete loss if you can see a way to rework it to be better. I'm looking forward to what you come up with!

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Not gonna lie, I'm rather disappointed with myself the Atavisms did not turn out well. I can only blame myself, but that does not make it less of a failure. Sorry about that.

    For All Is Dust, I'm gonna to to ditch the "nuke"theme and go like this:

    Normal: As is.

    Low Satiety: Bonus (Lair) Defense against all ranged attacks, damage to objects of the normal effect ramped up to (Lair/2). Magical Items trigger a Clash of Wills to prevent destruction.

    Satiety: pretty much what Heavy Arms suggested

    Should be able to get to it later this evening
    Last edited by Cinder; 04-28-2018, 10:23 AM.

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    I think Monster of the Deep is a good model if you want to stick with this. There's now penalty to the roll, but characters can Dodge it individually.

    It's strong with the Agg and all, but consider that Dragon's Fire lets you do long burst multiple target Agg attacks and adds Lair as Damage. A Lair 4 Eshmaki deals 5 Agg minimum. With how you set up All is Dust, it would add +4 dice, which makes the damage far less reliable.



    I would... I think it doesn't have a strong sense of what it wants to be. I think it could be a lot stronger in concept, and probably have an easily time with the mechanics, if it was more "decay," than, "destruction," if that makes sense?

    What do you think about this as an outline?

    Normal - as is with your clarifications

    Low - Amp up the Normal, objects with Durability < Lair are destroyed (magical items or enhanced items can be repaired once out of range), and mundane items with Durability >= Lair gain the Fragile Condition with a number of uses equal to (6 - Beast's Occult, min. 1) rather than the builder's Skill. Basically, highlight the futility of human innovations in the face of the finality of the Irkalla as tools break in their presence.

    Expenditure - Keep the area effect, keep the exemption and all, as a single attack that only targets objects (no Dodging no worry about that) with Lair as a damage rating and ignores Durability. For the highest Durability object a person is holding/wearing, if the damage exceeds Structure, excess damage is dealt as Agg damage to the person. So a person who's highest Durability object is a Durability 3/Size 3 sword, and you real 8 damage on the roll, the person holding that sword has a destroyed sword and takes 2 Agg. Get fun imagery of the decay (or melting, or rotting, or whatever) spreading to the body.

    This is very rough (just came up with it in a few minutes) but I think it might head in a strong direction.
    Truth being told, the Atavism's concept comes from more abrupt endings than decay. It's basically meant to invoke disasters and things like damaging auras (and owes both name and idea to a MtG card that does that). More "nuke" and less "decay", or at least that's how it was conceived. That said, I'll take in the criticism and delve on it some more. It might be indeed trying to be to many things at once and what you say makes sense, so I gotta deal with that. Thanks, both for the criticism and the outline!


    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I appreciate that instinct, though I prefer the author to at least acknowledge it. IME STs like knowing if they're supposed to make a choice rather than something that's not purposefully open.
    Not a problem, I'll add a note for that.


    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Mostly I was curious if you were thinking of things like Kinship Merits that might let a Beast build on Soul Loss manipulation.
    Indeed I am. Got my fair share of ideas, Merits, Nightmares and Atavism in my mind bubble, and a group of those does mess with Souls. I'm basically preparing the field for the future.
    Last edited by Cinder; 04-27-2018, 08:11 PM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Cinder View Post
    For High Satiety, what about using the highest Defense? It's one of the options I considered while tinkering with it. Most of the issues stem from the fact that I feel strongly that the damage should be aggravated, but at the same time was afraid it could be OP if not limited.
    I think Monster of the Deep is a good model if you want to stick with this. There's now penalty to the roll, but characters can Dodge it individually.

    It's strong with the Agg and all, but consider that Dragon's Fire lets you do long burst multiple target Agg attacks and adds Lair as Damage. A Lair 4 Eshmaki deals 5 Agg minimum. With how you set up All is Dust, it would add +4 dice, which makes the damage far less reliable.

    Of the three, this is the one I'm less confident about, but you think I should get back to the drawing board for It?
    I would... I think it doesn't have a strong sense of what it wants to be. I think it could be a lot stronger in concept, and probably have an easily time with the mechanics, if it was more "decay," than, "destruction," if that makes sense?

    What do you think about this as an outline?

    Normal - as is with your clarifications

    Low - Amp up the Normal, objects with Durability < Lair are destroyed (magical items or enhanced items can be repaired once out of range), and mundane items with Durability >= Lair gain the Fragile Condition with a number of uses equal to (6 - Beast's Occult, min. 1) rather than the builder's Skill. Basically, highlight the futility of human innovations in the face of the finality of the Irkalla as tools break in their presence.

    Expenditure - Keep the area effect, keep the exemption and all, as a single attack that only targets objects (no Dodging no worry about that) with Lair as a damage rating and ignores Durability. For the highest Durability object a person is holding/wearing, if the damage exceeds Structure, excess damage is dealt as Agg damage to the person. So a person who's highest Durability object is a Durability 3/Size 3 sword, and you real 8 damage on the roll, the person holding that sword has a destroyed sword and takes 2 Agg. Get fun imagery of the decay (or melting, or rotting, or whatever) spreading to the body.

    This is very rough (just came up with it in a few minutes) but I think it might head in a strong direction.

    Though I preferred to leave it open to the Storyteller. Having a "standard minion" stat block ready to use sure does make things easier, though.
    I appreciate that instinct, though I prefer the author to at least acknowledge it. IME STs like knowing if they're supposed to make a choice rather than something that's not purposefully open.

    As for Soul Loss, it's both. Thematic reasons aside, I felt they could use a tool to cause it more easily and can do wonders with other Family members.
    Mostly I was curious if you were thinking of things like Kinship Merits that might let a Beast build on Soul Loss manipulation.

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Thanks!

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    All is Dust:

    I find this one kinda... meh though. The Normal effect is more flaw than bonus, automatically destroying every object around you without a say in it is going to get your character left in the Lair by their Brood way, way too often. A half-hour nap will destroy pretty much every object in your surroundings that isn't exempted. Etc.

    We have a lot of Low Satiety lethal damage Atavisms already, and the armor piercing is the only valuable side of this one. But how does this interact with supernatural effects? Does it treat supernatural sources equally to normal ones? Clash of Wills?

    Satiety Expenditure is something that feels like it should be reworked to avoid having to roll way too much for one power. It's an area effect... it seems like it shouldn't be something you roll against every target + 1 for everything else in range.

    Basically if feels like a weird compromise between Monster from the Deep, and Titanic Blow... but not as good as either of them.
    Well, being Reflexive, the Normal Effect can be turned off at will. But then again, the immunity does not and it's "always on", so perhaps I should clarify things in there to avoid what you describe.

    Low Satiety treats everything equally, that's why I haven't detailed it further.

    For High Satiety, what about using the highest Defense? It's one of the options I considered while tinkering with it. Most of the issues stem from the fact that I feel strongly that the damage should be aggravated, but at the same time was afraid it could be OP if not limited

    Of the three, this is the one I'm less confident about, but you think I should get back to the drawing board for It?

    EDIT: also, the other option I considered for Low Satiety was raising the aura power so that it provides Defense against ranged attacks by Lair and does a little amount of lethal damage each turn to those around.


    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Tear Down the Walls:

    Love it. My only thoughts are if there's a way to integrate this with Family Ties/Kinship, and if the summon minions are meant to be 'set' or picked in the moment. Set is faster (maybe with the potential to alter when Lair is raised), but picked is more flexible.
    Having it set (and altered when Lair is raised) was how I'd personally run it and that's how I put it in my notes for use in game. Though I preferred to leave it open to the Storyteller. Having a "standard minion" stat block ready to use sure does make things easier, though.


    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Threadcutter:

    Definitely solid, but a bit unclear on a few points. Do things/people besides the user suffer Agg if the Normal effect is interrupted? Can you use the Low Satiety effect in a grapple or just smacking people? Are their intentions to have something for Beasts to interact more with Soul loss, or it is just for the sake of screwing with people (potential feeding) and setting up supernaturals that can do more with souls and the soulless?
    Only the user takes the damage and can only carry objects (though the fact he can't carry people can be clarified, I admit). Now that you mention it, I should add that those object do suffer the same damage..

    Grapple works, in which case you'd roll Strength + Brawl. But it's another point that remained more in my head than on paper.

    As for Soul Loss, it's both. Thematic reasons aside, I felt they could use a tool to cause it more easily and can do wonders with other Family members.
    Last edited by Cinder; 04-27-2018, 08:11 PM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Wow, that's an impressive amount of work. In general, I find the secondary Family choices a bit odd, but not a big deal.

    All is Dust:

    I find this one kinda... meh though. The Normal effect is more flaw than bonus, automatically destroying every object around you without a say in it is going to get your character left in the Lair by their Brood way, way too often. A half-hour nap will destroy pretty much every object in your surroundings that isn't exempted. Etc.

    We have a lot of Low Satiety lethal damage Atavisms already, and the armor piercing is the only valuable side of this one. But how does this interact with supernatural effects? Does it treat supernatural sources equally to normal ones? Clash of Wills?

    Satiety Expenditure is something that feels like it should be reworked to avoid having to roll way too much for one power. It's an area effect... it seems like it shouldn't be something you roll against every target + 1 for everything else in range.

    Basically if feels like a weird compromise between Monster from the Deep, and Titanic Blow... but not as good as either of them.

    Tear Down the Walls:

    Love it. My only thoughts are if there's a way to integrate this with Family Ties/Kinship, and if the summon minions are meant to be 'set' or picked in the moment. Set is faster (maybe with the potential to alter when Lair is raised), but picked is more flexible.

    Threadcutter:

    Definitely solid, but a bit unclear on a few points. Do things/people besides the user suffer Agg if the Normal effect is interrupted? Can you use the Low Satiety effect in a grapple or just smacking people? Are their intentions to have something for Beasts to interact more with Soul loss, or it is just for the sake of screwing with people (potential feeding) and setting up supernaturals that can do more with souls and the soulless?

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  • Cinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    These seem very powerful, but i hesitate to call them OP without seeing them in action myself. So on to clarification questions.

    Do objects immediately take one damage from All is Dust when they enter the Beast's area of effect, or does the first damage occur after one minute in their presence? Could you provide an example of what you mean by obviously supernatural damage to, say, a smartphone? What are the limits of the immunity to Tilts? Will fires snuff out pr part to let her through? Can she pull a Moses at the Red Sea? Why are you using two Attributes for the All is Dust Dicepool? If I wanted to change out one of them for a skill, how would I go about it?
    After, the minute is the time required for the Atavism to wear down the objects.

    Using the smartphone as example, let's say that five minutes of All Is Dust would leave it as fifty years in the rain, but overall it's meant to be customized according to the Horror. A dragon might leave it burnt, a minotaur cracked and broken, a kraken covered in coral and brine (and so on)

    The limits are to minor nuisances. Moss, undergrowths, mud and water from heavy rain are fine, bigger stuff is not. As a rule, I'd say if it can work as a minor Lair trait, it's eligible. Anything more than that does not. But the power does not prevent damage, it only enhances movement: a Beast can move through fire at full speed, but will still burn (unless immune because of other reasons, of course)

    The two Attributes are there because I could not think of a proper Skill to make an attack dicepool. I'd probably use Athletics, though I was not sure about it, since you're not throwing anything. That said, it's subjected to change and I will indeed swap it if you think that's better

    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Why does Tear Down the Walls work on Angels, if they are presumably outside the Dark Mother's purview like Demons? Does a character actually IC choose what ephemeral they attuned to the first time they gain the Atavism, or is it the type most connected to their myth?
    Angels cannot be affected, as specified after the Experience costs for expanding the Atavism written above.

    I'd go with what's most appropriate to the Horror, myth and Kinships: not a conscious choice on part of the character, but one that flows with her themes
    Last edited by Cinder; 04-27-2018, 08:34 AM.

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