Beast, CHangeling's and other things.

[Penguinbowler]

I have several question's about Best and other gamelines, changeling in particular. I know the nitty gritty of what the difference between a beast and a changeling is, but not so much what types of creatures could qualify as each, a Gorgon could be a venombite or a ugallan, a cyclops a Anakim or Ogre, and at least in changeling 1st edition, Sphinx's had an entire kith devoted to them. Are the Lost able to be anything the Begotten are?

My second question is, outside of game mechanics, why would most others in the darkness like and trust them. I would imagine they would mess with the spiritual landscape a ton, allowing fear and despair spirits to thrive, which would piss off any nearby werewolf packs, and since they seem to revel in their inhumanity, why would a Promethean, who's goal is to become human, like them? WHile i'm not sure this is canon, Beast remind me a lot of the true fae, which i doubt the changeling's would enjoy, but maybe some scarecrow minister's could find reason's to accept them, even if the entire freehold likely won't. I also fail to see why Sin Eaters would like them all to much, but unless they are actively killing people or messing with Avernian Gates, i don't think they would go after them. My biggest issue with mummies is the fact they may wreck their lifeweb that helps with their resurrections. Vampires and Mages i feel might be the most ok with them, but even then, more Moral Mages might not enjoy their feeding habits anymore they they would enjoy a vampires (This i feel also goes with changelings and promethians). Ironicly, if they weren't given rules for hating each other, i feel demon's might be the most willing to accept a beast.

Not trying to fight or anything, but could someone give me in universe reasons why most other's in the Chronicles of Darkness would like and trust them?

[Second Chances]

To your first question, pretty much. Beasts are a little more flexible since the Horror doesn't have to be humanoid while the changeling's mien does, but they are by far and away the two most flexible splats. The changeling will just be a bit more anthropomorphic than the beast.

[Konradleijon]

Shit the Differences between Beasts and Changelings could also by considered by the difference between Myths and Fairytales https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt2jcw6s

[nalak42]

First in regards to feeding the Beghotten can also feed off the other splats doing their thing. So helping a few of the garou take down a problematic spirit will also grant a few points of satiety, which is helpful to Beghotten who have more issues with some of their own feeding. Next there is little to stop a Beast from feeding on other supernatural entities, including ones that would be a problem for a group. An easy Changeling example would be a tyrant or a nemesis working security at a goblin market; deterring and catching individuals tempted to violate the rules of the market can feed a tyrant, and of course catching and punishing those that actually try something against the rules would feed a nemesis.(This is ignoring that if the proper conditions are met during the course of the market a Beast may be able to use family dinner to get a point as well.)

Next, feeding does not have to be a particularly negative or damaging. Law enforcement and the judicial system are the classic because they offer a number of options for a Beast to feed without really doing anything worse than a normal human would do. An enabler for example could feed off convincing someone to take a plea bargain and testify against other criminals. A fun chain I once described to a player was the enabler convincing a dealer to rat out where they get their supply from and then letting the nemesis and the tyrant bring those people in while you've got the predator in the wings to chase down anyone who runs or begin stalking up the chain to go after other likely suspects. There are other examples, tyrants just have to be acknowledged as superior to others in order to feed meaning the wide world of sports is not an impossible options. Enablers offer one of my favorites just because of how silly it sounds, but since an enabler just needs to get someone to violate their own belief to feed an enabler can technically feed by convincing an individual to try and get a date with a person they honestly believe it would be pointless, nigh on stupid, to ask out because said target of affections is out of their league.

[Heavy Arms]

It's worth noting that Beast relations with other supernaturals are not inherently positive. Even in the short write-up in the core book, it discusses how Beasts/something else relations can go well, or go poorly (including some Lost finding them too much like the Gentry).

This is because it makes things interesting. If Beasts were too obviously prefect friends, or too obviously devious devils to be dealing with, it would always play out the same way. By making the reactions and long term viability of kinship highly individualized and situational, it lets each Beast/something else interaction be unique and interesting.

Beasts are wildcards. They can be your close-knit family, or worst nightmare. That's kinda the point.

[Paradim]

Beasts can have very positive relationships with other monsters. Sometimes, they can be very bad influences.

Also, Demons and Beasts do not necessarily have a bad relationship with each other. They just don't count as being Kin. You don't have to feel a familial connection in order to be friends with someone. I can see situations where a Beast has a positive relationship with a Demon.

[nalak42]

As others have noted Beasts are not guaranteed to have good relationships with their kin, there is a power that says you get to make a check like you made a good first impression but that's as far as it goes, and there is nothing saying there isn't a bloody good reason for an individual not to get along with a Beghotten. That said personalities will run the gamut of human personalities, so nothing stopping a Beast from ending up friends/family with any other supernatural just because they share common ground outside of the necessities foisted upon them by the more abnormal parts of their nature. So for this part I'll be leaving personalities out where I can owing that on an individual basis there are any number of reasons for a relationship to go one way or the other.

In many cases should it be deemed worth it for a relationship, whatever it ends up as, a Beast can find ways to get their feeding in line with the needs or tolerances of their kin. Example since acquiring Glamour can be used to key off Family Dinner a Beast can offer itself for protection with the contingency that it be allowed to observe and such when the Changeling go to get more Glamour. This is in addition that the Beast may be able to feed off whatever service they offer. Now universal powers owned by the Beghotten can add nice tricks to a group, for one unless specific counter measures are taken a Beast inherently can detect when another supernatural is nearby and tell what the species they are. Not specific enough to be able to look at a room and pick out who's a werewolf, who's a mage, and who's a vampire, but it is still a potential early warning system or way to identify a supernatural's presence in an area.

The powers Family Resemblance and Thicker than Water mean a Beast can also work out passably at negotiations. Thicker than Water is at least helpful in getting your foot in the door during negotiations and Family Resemblance means a Beast can do a passable job at pretending to be a different supernatural if the belief that a Beast is Mummy is somehow deemed beneficial.

Lairs and portals are also rather fun. Since one power a Beast has is to force open a gate between worlds, assuming they can find one, a Beast would be able to grant access to the other end of that portal/gate or just redirect it to their own Lair. Allowing Beasts to function nicely for dealing with those as either a means of escape or entry. Ie if you need a gate opened and you don't have a means a Beast can rip open the gate and grant you access, by the same token should you need to escape through a portal but be worried about the other side the Beast can force the door open and redirect it to their own Lair meaning that you're not going where they thought you were. Now Lairs are a whole glorious mess of advantages. First, overlaying your Lair brings its traits into play that can just seriously mess up enemies. The Beast can also grant guest privellages ,long term or single visit, which prevents the Lair's nature from causing harm to the guests. So if your group needs to run into the Lair they won't need to worry about the idea that dropping into the middle of a desert of broken glass during a huge wind storm would be horribly painful whereas any enemies that follow in will have to deal with that, also the Beast will be able to merge with their Horror in the Lair and all the fun that entails. As Lairs are also off world they can function as pretty decent safehouses for those a Beast wants to protect. With the added fun that the players guide confirms that if you go into a Lair in one Chamber then you can exit to a very different area ie fleeing into the Lair in Michigan and exiting a little while later in a little town in the middle of nowhere in Germany that you have just in case and well funny story. If you're really concerned a Beast can then sever the connection to said chamber meaning that even if something can force open the pathway to that chamber it would not connect back to where the Beast and its allies retreated to.

[Eternal Darkness]

While it's true that there are potentially any number of reasons for a given supernatural to dislike Beasts, the benefits of having one of the Begotten as an Ally or at the very least not an enemy are numerous. What i've found in practice is that most supernaturals - Demons included - are quite eager to make a beneficial arrangement once they understand how insanely useful having a friendly beast around can be. Changelings especially - all they have to do is swear the Beast to an oath or two and they can be reasonably assured of fair dealings. My Beast characters at least tend to find Changelings to be excellent broodmates; once they get past the vague similarity to their Keepers, they have an understanding of how strange dreamlike otherworlds work and are always happy to have a place they can go to hide from their keepers. One of my all-time favorite roleplay moments was when a Beast character of mine had the mother of all showdowns with a fairly powerful member of the Gentry and actually won - then went to retrieve his Changeling broodmate from said keeper's Arcadian stronghold, only to have her decide it'd be safer to sit down and talk it out rather than pick a fight with a being that could actually kill her ass for real. He actually brokered a deal to get that particular fae to leave his changeling friends alone entirely in exchange for a few services and a promise of marriage :P

[Heavy Arms]

Another thing to consider is that Beasts don't have to get along with the primary player groups of the other splats.

A Beast could get easily find an alliance with the Pure beneficial as an example; esp. one of the Begotten that's not too keen on being 'nice.' So they'd be highly antagonistic to some werewolves, and not others.

One of the things that Beasts bring to the table is that they don't have factions and the politics that come with them... but they're going to get invested in the politics of who they end up hanging out with. Beasts don't have any real inherent reasons to favor one side or another in most of the political battles of the CofD. One Freehold could have a brood of Begotten allies helping them stomp the Gentry and their lackeys... while a different Freehold might have the extra terror of a Brood that's working with a motley of Loyalists.

[ArcaneArts]

So I'm going to nitpick through this as I answer it, and I want to start by just clarifying that I'm not picking on you, I just think there's a lot of things grouped together in that second paragraph that needs untangling. Wanted that open up front.

I have several question's about Best and other gamelines, changeling in particular. I know the nitty gritty of what the difference between a beast and a changeling is, but not so much what types of creatures could qualify as each, a Gorgon could be a venombite or a ugallan, a cyclops a Anakim or Ogre, and at least in changeling 1st edition, Sphinx's had an entire kith devoted to them. Are the Lost able to be anything the Begotten are?

So as mentioned, the two big differences are more the Fairtytale vs Mythic presentation of characters, and how changelings are humanoid while Beasts don't have to be(the significance and mechanics of how that narratively and iconographically works is longer than I'd want to dig into here, but I do have a previous post on Changeling vs Demon where I at least talk about that for Changeling, I'll dig it up).

The big thing is that the images that Beasts evokes tend to be rawer-more "elemental" and chimeric in the sense that it's brutal and simplistic, a force that sweeps over civilization, an archetype people deviate from. You might have giants in both Beast and Changeling, but you'll never get a satyr as a Beast-but Fomorians are definitely on the table. You could be a titan where a changeling couldn't (not without losing something).

It's rough to get right into how they differ immagistically, but the themes and moods of them will, if nothing else, create different brush strokes for them.

Anyways, onto the meat.

My second question is, outside of game mechanics, why would most others in the darkness like and trust them.

There's a deeper core answer to the question I'll get to at the end of this, but as a beginning answer: willing resources and assets. People are always a gamble, doubly so in the Chronicles world, but it's hard to argue against someone who feels deeply a kinship that asks for at least some kind of response who can also open up whole other worlds to you and empower you on your own turf, as well as have your back on some level. Beast's investments in Chambers, Satiety, and Lair also gives them a logical angle to handle their game where sheer trust might fail-Besats do still have an agenda, and you can always play off of that if the good will doesn't fully play out. Sure, it's a gamble, but broadly anyone can see a Beast as a reasonable asset in any of their pursuits, and they have a familiar angle as well as a calculated angle that makes it easy to buy in through either vector.

Now, to go into specifics....

I would imagine they would mess with the spiritual landscape a ton, allowing fear and despair spirits to thrive, which would piss off any nearby werewolf packs,

This kind of ignores the fact that a lot of werewolves, even the Forsaken, have uses for fear and despair spirits. Fear's actually a big part of how Werewolves operate anyways, if the Cahalith's, Ithaeur's, and Irraka's modus operandi weren't particular tip-offs, and honestly careful application of fear can help with stalling or keeping certain elements of the werewolves territory in line, at least until direct intervention can happen. Despair serves similiar roles. On a broader scale, any Beast who isn't a dumbass usually has a good eye on the upkeep of their own territory, and more seasoned eyes will work to keep their territory to their liking, which is a thing any werewolf can appreciate, and those who buy into Lesson culture can usually dig into a werewolf's tendencies as keepers of their own gardens, and thereby hone their influence on the environment with the sharpness that werewolves exact. It's not like they're void on acting on spirits in that capacity, even those who treat the Beast as their watering hole. Add in the other benefits and their natural symmetry of thought, and all but the most dumbass of Beasts actually can work a decent slot in a werewolf pack.

and since they seem to revel in their inhumanity, why would a Promethean, who's goal is to become human, like them?

Because if there's one thing a Beast can appreciate above their own thoughts on humanity and monstrosity, it's becoming who you want to be-after all, every Beast made the choice to become the monsters they are, knowing what it would be like for everyone else to get into. A Promethean may be travelling in the opposite direction, but Beasts not only get that desire to become something other than they are, but they stand in the benefit of having chased that end. Sure, humanity might not be a thing a Beast wants (though they might, check out the Divergence and the Erasure), but if a Promethean feels they can find happiness becoming human, by transcending the limits of their flesh, what Beast, who has already transcended their own flesh, is going to say boo to that?

The text tend to treat Beasts as confused but enthusiastic supporters of Promethean's Pilgramage, and while they may not be directly helpful, they still can point the way, and I think that makes a lot of sense for them. The Begotten may not get it, but they love their adopted siblings all the same, and if that's what they need to be happy, then they are there for them. Fuck the world telling them they can't be human, they'll stand by and defy that shit all day long.

WHile i'm not sure this is canon, Beast remind me a lot of the true fae, which i doubt the changeling's would enjoy, but maybe some scarecrow minister's could find reason's to accept them, even if the entire freehold likely won't.

Well, first off, unless the Freehold has a lot of interaction with Beasts to the point of justifying their regular round of operations on the fact, I don't think a freehold is going to concern itself too much. It's a bit like trying to justify an Autumn Courtier, or anyone who plays around in those sort of circles.

That said, there's no denying that the relationship between Beasts and Changelings are complicated affairs, but a Beast in general has reasons to be predisposed to the autonomy and safety of a changeling where a True Fae wouldn't, and it's hard to deny that a beast has actualized into a point of position where in they have many of the things any changeling is looking for-community and place for security, an appreciation for the beauty and horror in all things while treating the experiences of any person as valid (because what Beast is going to deny what a changeling has experienced like humans, or try and seduce them away from the world like fairies?), and a base attitude of sincerity that, while might still need to be earned through sealings and bargains early on, is the sort of thing that a changeling would want-someone who believes them and defends them not because of things said but simply because they feel a kinship.

Sure, there's a lot of squick to Beasts, but it's hard to not feel safe with someone who speaks your language, has all the reason to believe you just because, and will defend you from all the ways you can be taken away, from Arcadia to your own sense of internal peace and place.

I also fail to see why Sin Eaters would like them all to much, but unless they are actively killing people or messing with Avernian Gates, i don't think they would go after them.

One thing Beasts and Sin-Eaters get is the various ways things can bind or bear down on a person, keeping them from joy or simple tranquility, and the various Archetypes can find the value in how Beasts destroy both larger sources of injustice and oppression and smaller hang-ups and personal blindings. Beyond that, any of the Burdens can buy into the Beast's sense of self-ownership and self-care. Beasts at least demonstrate what happen when you break the chains on any sort of front and can often see what happens and can happen when you free yourself from systems and anxieties, and that sort of destruction to the spiral of self-destruction that Sin-Eaters regularly work against can be very valuable. Plus, again, any Beast who buys into the lesson culture with some degree of sincerity is basically going to be a Sin-Eater's best friend, since they are often trying to teach lessons to the living and the dead to let go before it's too late.

My biggest issue with mummies is the fact they may wreck their lifeweb that helps with their resurrections.

This is true, Max, but going back to the werewolf argument, Beasts actually have plenty of incentives to be mindful of their environment, and Beasts who learn to think of things in terms of the lifeweb are likely to account for that in their processing of how their territory is owned, since the benefits for doing so (particularly once realized through the advantages of Relic Architecture, geomantic resonance, and simple dread order) tend to outweigh ignoring it. It takes recalibration, but a Mummy could do a lot worse than a Beast as a mythic guardian-priest in their cult, and the balance between cosmic despair and present terror mixed in with the subtlety and cunning that both of their human sides offer tends to help with making the world feel just a little bit more like the Empire. Besides, they both like reminding the world as it is that it was not always thus, and that the ancient powers that be still have power over civilization. Fun times all around.

Vampires and Mages i feel might be the most ok with them,

Yep yep.

but even then, more Moral Mages

*snort*

might not enjoy their feeding habits anymore they they would enjoy a vampires (This i feel also goes with changelings and promethians).

Considering that mages uses normal humans as disposable resources most of the time, even as "good" guys, that's somewhat dubious. Sure, new mages might get irked, but there comes a point where the people below you are, well, just that-below. Arguably, a Beast's attitude toward's humans will often end up still being healthier for the humans than a Mage will, because while Beast's at least have some incentives to think about humanity for a variety of a reasons, a Mage's eyes are locked on the heaven's that could be theirs, and the closer they get, the lest the dust around them matters.

When you're the sort of person whose will gets done and is, in fact, seemingly more real and exacting than those of anyone else, you have little reason to think of people as being the same sort of person that you are. You can make them do so much, be so much, fail so much, fall so much-really, humanity is just more clay to shape in your hands. The idea of people as food probably bothers Beasts more than it does Mages. Mages, after all, can always stop their screaming.

And while it might make Changelings and Prometheans uneasy, it's not like they don't feed off of humanity's emotional extremes and unease as well. It becomes hard to justify the contrast when you're toying with a married man's boner against his will for a sip of lust or a young woman's desire to live to see why she values her humanity the way she does.

Ironicly, if they weren't given rules for hating each other, i feel demon's might be the most willing to accept a beast.

They would, actually, and while the mechanics in place are there to Doylistically perserve the gameplay style of each game and Watsonially keep the sense of sacred and profane apartness for G-M entities, once those hurdles are jumped, there's a long and beautiful relationship to be had between the two, so long as it's played right.

Not trying to fight or anything, but could someone give me in universe reasons why most other's in the Chronicles of Darkness would like and trust them?

So I mentioned a deep reason why, and it comes down to this:

Few entities in the Chronicles world as so inclined and incentivized to treat you, stand by you, and forgive you like family as Beast, and that means a lot for any monster.

Starting at the tail end of that, a lot of monsters deal with humanity vs monstrosity struggle in some form or fashion, even if it's not necessarily something they started with, like werewolves. Sure, a lot of the cultures of monsters ultimately push them into monstrosity, but there's still lines and rules. Sure, the Covenants may make monsters one and all out of any vampire, but there's still a line between them and the Brood, or heaven forbid the Strix. Pentacle mages may all be fucks, but they still want to be better fucks than the Seers. Every Lost can see themselves in any Loyalist, know all it takes is enough of a scare, enough of a loss of self and place, for them to sell out like they did. Forsaken and Pure or Bale Hounds, Pilgrims and Centimani, Hunters and Slashers, Sin-Eaters and Tyrants, Deathless and Lifeless, Unchained and Angels-there's a fear of monstrosity that all can see themselves in, and they almost invariably deal with that line.

Beasts sit at that line between, and are there to say "it's okay" to anyone who goes that far without flipping the entire way. They affirm that monstrosity is part of who they are now, that there's no shame in being who you are, or even wanting more. It's okay to be a terror in the night, and even if you're mindful about it, aspirtational even, it's okay to be who you are, where you are.

And the fact that a Beast can offer that out of no other reason than they feel a spiritual kinship, and their own personal alignment to your circumstances, is empowering. Acolytes of the Circle of the Crone may teach that it's okay to be a vampire, but it's in argument with a bunch of people who were formerly human. A Beast, by contrast, is someone who came into being owning their mosnterhood completely, and therefore to have them to tell you it's okay-it's freeing, it's secure, it's heartwarming. A Beast often doesn't have room to argue against who you are and what you've experienced, and therefore doesn't express those same doubts and fears any other monster might have. On top of that, while definitely lower on the scale, they aren't as bad as the parallels they all deal with, not without a choice on their part to be so. They are monsters, free and unashamed, but they are not assholes about it. (I mean, they might be, but not as a convention)

It's a simple thing, sentimental, even a little sappy-but what a Beast offers is a home, an absolute assertion that things are okay, that you, the vampire, werewolf, mage, Created, changeling, Bound, mummy, demon, deviant, you are okay, and they offer that just simply because that's how they feel. Sure, they have their motives too, but while that might logically do a lot of the legwork, that doesn't change the fact that at the simple heart of what they do, they do it because, well, y'all are the monster family. It's alarming, it's thrilling, it might even be a little bit disturbing and may need you to rethink things-but for a lot of people who are often shoved out of place and out of balance when they become a monster, it's a solid and firm place to be.

Monsters are people, like anyone else, and almost everyone, at the end of the day, wants some kind of uncompromised assurance. A Beast is a terrifying place to be, a nightmare of a friend to have, and a chilling assurance to be told-but they are a place to be and a friend to have and an assurance to be told, and for a lot of monsters?

That's one of the sweetest things they could hope to have.

The sky may be full of teeth, but they are bright all the same.

[HelmsDerp]

Adding to the excellent responses above, Prometheans have one strong incentive to pal around with Beasts, which is that Beasts are immune to Disquiet. They're the one friend you'll always be able to count on not to suddenly succumb to that irrational hatred.

Changelings... yeah, it's not too hard to see the connection between a Horror and a True Fae. The difference is, Beasts are more than just their Horrors. Some of them retain enough of a human perspective to look at what the Fae do and say "No, that's a bridge too far, and I won't stand by while it happens." And many have the power to back up that kind of sentiment. It might be kind of unnerving, but one of the things Changelings have always had to face is that it's hard, maybe impossible, to face the Fae without becoming something like them. The power to fight back is... it's power, the power to do as they do. The difference has to be in what you choose to do with it. Beasts are also well equipped to run interference with Huntsmen, since they lack the weakness to cold iron.

And there's just something hilarious about an Unbreakable grappler wrapping himself in rusty barbed wire and trying to hug the Fae. Horrifying, but hilarious.

[ArcaneArts]

Seriously. However much a Beast and True Fae are alike, at least a Beast is likely to listen to you. Or at least, as likely as any of the other assholes around you.

[nalak42]

I will also mention that I believe its in the core that Beasts aren't susceptible to disquiet or whatever thing it is that causes prolonged exposure to a Promethean to cause mortals to lose their minds. Which is probably really nice to know you have someone in your corner who isn't going to eventually snap like a twig just because you exist.

[ArcaneArts]

I will also mention that I believe its in the core that Beasts aren't susceptible to disquiet or whatever thing it is that causes prolonged exposure to a Promethean to cause mortals to lose their minds. Which is probably really nice to know you have someone in your corner who isn't going to eventually snap like a twig just because you exist.

Promethean lists it directly. Beasts alone don't suffer Disquiet-which should concern Prometheans as much as it thrills them

[Paradim]

Monsters are people, like anyone else, and almost everyone, at the end of the day, wants some kind of uncompromised assurance. A Beast is a terrifying place to be, a nightmare of a friend to have, and a chilling assurance to be told-but they are a place to be and a friend to have and an assurance to be told, and for a lot of monsters?

That's one of the sweetest things they could hope to have.

The sky may be full of teeth, but they are bright all the same.

Seeing statements like this from you (and the over all really eloquent post) makes me really hopeful to find your name in the writing credits on any new Beast: The Primordial related books.