The Eshmaki and the Enlightened

[Michael Brazier]

A thought - if the Eshmaki are all about being inscrutable and unpredictable, then their Hero counterparts are the masterminds. The people who obsessively plan ahead, thinking of answers for all contingencies; who move people around like chess pieces, and discard them if they don't act according to spec. They're like the Plain in responding badly to those who don't match their expectations, but unlike them because the Enlightened don't reject complexity - they revel in it. Also, the Plain won't try to control or manipulate people, while the Enlightened often do. They're scalpels, versus the Plain's cudgels.

[ArcaneArts]

A thought - if the Eshmaki are all about being inscrutable and unpredictable, then their Hero counterparts are the masterminds. The people who obsessively plan ahead, thinking of answers for all contingencies; who move people around like chess pieces, and discard them if they don't act according to spec. They're like the Plain in responding badly to those who don't match their expectations, but unlike them because the Enlightened don't reject complexity - they revel in it. Also, the Plain won't try to control or manipulate people, while the Enlightened often do. They're scalpels, versus the Plain's cudgels.

While it's not so much about being inscrutable and unpredictable (though it can definitely look like that from the outside) so much as about rapid adaptability and precedented reputation(more so than Beasts in general), this explanation of the Enlightened is not only spot on, I actively like it better than how I went at it.

If the Eshamki is learning to accept being blinded and developing strengths in accordance with that, the Enlightened want to see as far ahead of the curve as possible.

[Primordial newcomer]

Sorry if there's a specific thread where more broad questions for this are to be asked but...

Do you plan, or have a concept of the plan for if you could get this stuff canon, for Beasts AND Heroes to be able to subvert each other's general philosophies and triumph ideologically in a way that isn't simply "I killed him, therefore I'm right". Sorry if that's unclear

Also, I remember you saying you'd like to switch hungers and Familes in terms of X and Y splat (something like that). While I'm personally against this, are you still planning to do that? Just wondering since it seems you are keeping the families in order to have the forsworn.

[ArcaneArts]

Sorry if there's a specific thread where more broad questions for this are to be asked but...

Do you plan, or have a concept of the plan for if you could get this stuff canon, for Beasts AND Heroes to be able to subvert each other's general philosophies and triumph ideologically in a way that isn't simply "I killed him, therefore I'm right". Sorry if that's unclear

Also, I remember you saying you'd like to switch hungers and Familes in terms of X and Y splat (something like that). While I'm personally against this, are you still planning to do that? Just wondering since it seems you are keeping the families in order to have the forsworn.

Sure. One thing that emerged from all the bemoaning about a lack of organizations in Beast (which is bullshit, but I've beaten that dead horse) is that Beast needs to increase the vector on the subject of Family Drama, which is one of a lot of factors that led to the angle of Heroes as another set of Children of the Dark Mother.

One of the advantages of both that angle of conception as well as Family Drama came the conception of the Three Children, not only as Actual Children Lines, but also that they represented three major strains of thoughts at work within the Dark Mother's family. Sometimes, you take sides in familiar squabbling. So this means that not only are there Insatiables, Beasts, and Heroes, but that the Children can be Insatiable, Beastial, or Heroic as well.

THis also helps with another (obnoxious) problem that creeps up every once in a while-where someone asks Why their Beasts can't just be assholes who don't wanna have to care about any deep and heavy stuff and just be a cartoon villain. Answer: Sure you can. There'll be Insatiable (and Insatiable Beasts and Heroes) happy to get you in on their argument with open arms. And sure, that probably won't stop them from devouring yoru Lair, but if you're the sort of person who feels they have the right to be assholes because nothing fucking matters, that Lair probably they eat is probably fair cost to belong.

Beasts are the most likely to swing either way, because their nature is the most wide in terms of acceptance of the three (and can be as prone to assholish nihilism or self-centered aggrandizement), but sometimes Heroes realize something's missing and will join Beasts in their quests for self-transcendence or wrestle with their own unimprotance by going with the Insatiable, and the Insatiable can, for whatever reason, come to jive and work for either a Beastial or Heroic conception of world and meaning.

None of this has mechanical benefits-the Insatiable still cause Schism and eat Lair, Heroes still can't form Kinship bonds with Beasts or Insatiable-but families are messy and lines aren't neatly cut, and the point is that they're all siblings regardless of that. It wouldn't be Primordial if the idea of factionalization itself wasn't rattled and semi-broken apart. None of which is to say that there's no one taking sides between Uncles Joey's and Tom's ongoing argument over bowling technique, because there is a true and proper way to bowl, damnit.

Oh, if you really want to start a fight at the dinner table, ask who came first and who came last and why the Dark Mother did it that way. Potatoes and cranberry sauce everywhere.

EDIT: that said, the central seat of contention is still Beasts against Heroes, with their starkly opposite stances on meaningful meaning, and the heart of Beast's themes and conflicts-but No Neat Boxes is still a thing.

[Primordial newcomer]

Sure. One thing that emerged from all the bemoaning about a lack of organizations in Beast (which is bullshit, but I've beaten that dead horse) is that Beast needs to increase the vector on the subject of Family Drama, which is one of a lot of factors that led to the angle of Heroes as another set of Children of the Dark Mother.

One of the advantages of both that angle of conception as well as Family Drama came the conception of the Three Children, not only as Actual Children Lines, but also that they represented three major strains of thoughts at work within the Dark Mother's family. Sometimes, you take sides in familiar squabbling. So this means that not only are there Insatiables, Beasts, and Heroes, but that the Children can be Insatiable, Beastial, or Heroic as well.

THis also helps with another (obnoxious) problem that creeps up every once in a while-where someone asks Why their Beasts can't just be assholes who don't wanna have to care about any deep and heavy stuff and just be a cartoon villain. Answer: Sure you can. There'll be Insatiable (and Insatiable Beasts and Heroes) happy to get you in on their argument with open arms. And sure, that probably won't stop them from devouring yoru Lair, but if you're the sort of person who feels they have the right to be assholes because nothing fucking matters, that Lair probably they eat is probably fair cost to belong.

Beasts are the most likely to swing either way, because their nature is the most wide in terms of acceptance of the three (and can be as prone to assholish nihilism or self-centered aggrandizement), but sometimes Heroes realize something's missing and will join Beasts in their quests for self-transcendence or wrestle with their own unimprotance by going with the Insatiable, and the Insatiable can, for whatever reason, come to jive and work for either a Beastial or Heroic conception of world and meaning.

None of this has mechanical benefits-the Insatiable still cause Schism and eat Lair, Heroes still can't form Kinship bonds with Beasts or Insatiable-but families are messy and lines aren't neatly cut, and the point is that they're all siblings regardless of that. It wouldn't be Primordial if the idea of factionalization itself wasn't rattled and semi-broken apart. None of which is to say that there's no one taking sides between Uncles Joey's and Tom's ongoing argument over bowling technique, because there is a true and proper way to bowl, damnit.

Oh, if you really want to start a fight at the dinner table, ask who came first and who came last and why the Dark Mother did it that way. Potatoes and cranberry sauce everywhere.

EDIT: that said, the central seat of contention is still Beasts against Heroes, with their starkly opposite stances on meaningful meaning, and the heart of Beast's themes and conflicts-but No Neat Boxes is still a thing.

Thank you for the in depth answer. I also like how you are making the main theme "of you don't choose your family" less reliant on other gamelines (of course it's THE crossover game, but you are making it stand on its own now)

[ArcaneArts]

Thank you for the in depth answer. I also like how you are making the main theme "of you don't choose your family" less reliant on other gamelines (of course it's THE crossover game, but you are making it stand on its own now)

Yep. We do still want to keep crossover a major feature of Beast by keeping connection to other monsters desirable and essential towards Beast's central pole of Building Your Lair and What That Means, but it has become clear over time that an over-reliance on that was a problem with first takes on Beast, and in future Beast stands a lot to benefit by allowing itself to exist on it's own, with doing a lot more with the internal family dynamics, getting into how Astral/Dreaming Gods fuck around with all three of them (as the foremost actors of the Astral/Dreaming), and taking a broader and murkier approach akin to how Vigil First Edition did mixed in with the Horror Creation System from the Chronicles Core book for it's own core approach (which is to say, not necessairly for supplemental). It also helps to maintain the spirit of adventure, discovery, and connection for people who only get Beast, while people who know more can get into fun of how that core suggests Beast would cut into other gamelines (and I have an outline I need to get to about how the Astral/Dreaming and the Dark Mother alone, sans Beasts, Heroes, and Insatiable, do just that).

THat's not to say overt discussion of crossover and family dynamics with other gamelines is out of place-a hypothetical Brood book would gain a lot from being direct about it, both for Beast and the gamelines, and if anyone says no to a Night Horrors book that address the antagonists of other gamelines as it affects Beast (and visa versa) I'd be surprised-but Beast needs to prove it can play around with it's own themes on it's own terms if it's really gonna actually act as a pillar to swing crossover activity on.

Beasts still seek out and connect with Family because it's what ya do-but not all vampires they befriend need to be the Kindred.