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  • #16
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    So no. Heroic Lair, Satiety, and [REDACTED] are all meant to support from beneath, not directly empower them.
    Or, to put it another way, the default assumption is still that Heroes work like Strix and Huntsmen and the more insidious flavors of idigam, where the point is less for them to be a direct threat out the gate and more for them to have very easy access to powers that specifically mess with the vulnerabilities of the type of monster that you are, especially the psychosocial ones.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      Or, to put it another way, the default assumption is still that Heroes work like Strix and Huntsmen and the more insidious flavors of idigam, where the point is less for them to be a direct threat out the gate and more for them to have very easy access to powers that specifically mess with the vulnerabilities of the type of monster that you are, especially the psychosocial ones.
      Yep. Heroes aren't dangerous because they can punch your face really hard, it's that they very rapidly dismantle all that work you put into trying to belong to a community (whether as a beneficent trial-maker or as the asshat monster what eats all challengers and therefore sit on top of the community.)


      Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Feminine pronouns, please.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        I release them when I get to them. Probably should hammer out Heroic Satiety.

        Related, I have a tenative Forsworn set of names akin to the actual Family names, like Anakim, Eshmaki, Makara, the like. I'm not sold on them, per se-the principle was to find god/heroes/names that catch the idea or something adjacent in the same language as the original Family, and some of them are not quite the sound I would go for, but still. Let's see how y'all take to them.

        The Daphna, The Victorious, Forsworn of Hopelessness
        The Amiran*, The Enlightened, Forsworn of Darkness
        The Balaram, The Plain, Forsworn of the Depths
        The Ningizzida**, The Immortals, Forsworn of Revulsion
        The Ishum***, the Invincible, Forsworn of Exposure
        The Ehki, The Priests****, Forsworn of the Other
        The Libertas, The Libertines****, Forsworn of Confinement

        *Yes, I know the previous Fire Lineage of Promethean is also named the Amirani, but the best Georgian mythological figure to embody the idea of Enlightened Hero is their Prometheus figure, so I'm aiming at avoiding the confusion by dropping that last i and otherwise accepting that shit happens.
        **I will also take the excuse to name them the Ishtari, but Ningizzida seems more appropriate for having actually gotten the root of life.
        ***Shockingly, Mesopotamians have a a lot of deities who serve the role of protection that could apply. I thought about one that specifically geared against demons (Sebutti), but Ishum had connotations that seemed very anti-Ugallu.
        ****Obviously subject to change if the writing hews for a better name, like the Enlightened and Invincible over the Bright and the Armored.
        So Daphna = Greek, Amiran(i) = Georgia, Balaram = Hindu, Ningizzida = Sumero-Akkadian, Ishum = Sumerian.

        Something we don't really have yet is Slavic. "Alkonost" or "Raróg" could be nice for the Libertine: both reflect the notion of ambiguity (human and avian, dangerous yet potentially beneficial to humanity) and kinship (they're all related with other supernatural winged creatures, like the Sirin, which to me would be the Begotten stand-in). Also, it involves flying as the dangerous and intoxicating freedom at the risk of fall, which differs from the Ugallu and links to the Talassii in the right way, IMO.

        As for the priests, that would be where I'd go Latin and pick Penates, or maybe Egeria (or the even less known and intriguing Vegoia). But Sumer/Akkad is also very tempting, with the Apkallu and Uanna/Adapa.

        Ultimately I know you'll pick something great based on your own written take, just musing aloud, so to speak.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          Yep. Heroes aren't dangerous because they can punch your face really hard, it's that they very rapidly dismantle all that work you put into trying to belong to a community (whether as a beneficent trial-maker or as the asshat monster what eats all challengers and therefore sit on top of the community.)
          Which in terms of adapting the story of Heroes and monsters, sounds better. The Heroes are of myth, after all, are usually set up as the brave underdogs looking to overthrow the monster (and therefore, it's enforced role) while also showing that humanity doesn't need em anymore. Much better than simply being some badass who just beats you up without attracting a crowd

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

            Which in terms of adapting the story of Heroes and monsters, sounds better. The Heroes are of myth, after all, are usually set up as the brave underdogs looking to overthrow the monster (and therefore, it's enforced role) while also showing that humanity doesn't need em anymore. Much better than simply being some badass who just beats you up without attracting a crowd
            Going way back to old presentations, Heroes are a serious case of "Fuck Gaston." Gaston's not stronger than the Beast in any sense of the word. What does Gaston have going for him?

            "Can you not feel the world, turning in my direction already?"


            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              Going way back to old presentations, Heroes are a serious case of "Fuck Gaston." Gaston's not stronger than the Beast in any sense of the word. What does Gaston have going for him?

              "Can you not feel the world, turning in my direction already?"
              And worse, Gaston is the perfect example of had he won, he really would be seen as the hero of the story. Of completely averting a story of tragedy and redemption into a Hero's tale of saving a damsel in distress.

              Really one of the biggest reasons I want the effects on the Astral focused on. It's incredibly unique that Brast: the Primordial uses the mundane world the most in order to effect their metaphysical otherworld, bur I do wish the game explored those consequences more and the stories the Astral makes

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              • #22
                One thing I would like some clarification on is how the Ugallu and Makara differ in your conception. "Exposure" and "Drowning" both involve a situation that is inherently not safe for you on an environmental level, not just from hostile beings. That sense of absent protection, whether its body or armor. I can think of a few differences, but I'm not sure which are the important ones. And I'm pretty sure that answering this question also involves looking into the differences between their Forsworn counterparts too.


                A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
                  One thing I would like some clarification on is how the Ugallu and Makara differ in your conception. "Exposure" and "Drowning" both involve a situation that is inherently not safe for you on an environmental level, not just from hostile beings. That sense of absent protection, whether its body or armor. I can think of a few differences, but I'm not sure which are the important ones. And I'm pretty sure that answering this question also involves looking into the differences between their Forsworn counterparts too.
                  There's an element of entropy that I couldn't really get into the text for the Ugallu that contrasts with the much more immediate hostility of the Makara.

                  The Makara, on a human level, embody an environment that if you try to just adapt to in one go is going to kill you, and on a conceptual level will probably just utterly bewilider, baffle, and overwhelm you. You need to pull up for air, reorient yourself, take some seconds to center, before breathing deep and diving back in. In the loose dream logic that Beast explores these principles on, you can do that enough time until you become the alien that can take to this hostile environment, but let's make it clear-it's IMMEDIATELY hostile.

                  The Ugallu tap into something a little bit longer and more inevitable, the way that the elements themselves will slowly chew away your housing, your fuels, your clothing, your food. If you sit comfortable in your protection and don't commit to their restoration, it need not even be a storm to eat you alive-but of course, sometimes exposure can be used to toughen you up, to refine and preserve other things. It's a matter of knowing what is what. On the conceptual level, there's the curse of knowledge as applies to self, other and world-once you know something about the way it works, it can't be unlearned, it can't, to borrow a queer phrase because Hi, go back in the closet. You can try, but inevitably circumstances are going to wear at any attempt to hide or otherwise protect that actuality of the scenario-reality will out itself, reality will be itself.

                  Both deal with ideas of adaptation (well, actually, all of them do) and the process of being more of yourself (again, all of them do), but the Makara hews towards the external intimidation, learning to navigate and harmonize with the new environment, learning to swim in these unchartered waters and breath in the environment. The Ugallu hew towards the internal pain and strife of clarity, turning that initial sense of pain into expanded sensitivity into new ways to see and experience stimuli.

                  Again, to be queer about it, my Makara experience was learning that the need for LBGT+ language was valid, and then working my from the umbrella terms to the specifics, and more importantly seeing how society is hostile towards LBGT+ individuals piece by piece. My Ugallu experience was suddenly realizing that, when I gave myself permission, I ended up thinking of myself in queer terms a lot and that came from somewhere-and once I knew where and why, I couldn't go back to just being a guy all the time.

                  A lot of the things about the Families are recurrent-the Ugallu's desert and the Namtaru's marsh and the Makara's ocean, and the Eshmaki's forest, and the Anakim's mountain all break down to the same some of pressures. The main difference is in how it's understood, the particular element that gets the rabbit heart running. In the same way that the difference between the Eshmaki and the Makara can be reduced to the difference between being blinded and being drowned, the particulars of the Makara and the Ugallu is the difference the timeframe and how available "choice" can seem. Being queer a third time, if a mermaid can't help but notice that siren call of the gay clubs, the phoenix can't ignore the burning of their heart.

                  Hopefully that clarifies it a bit.

                  Originally posted by Adrasalieth View Post

                  So Daphna = Greek, Amiran(i) = Georgia, Balaram = Hindu, Ningizzida = Sumero-Akkadian, Ishum = Sumerian.

                  Something we don't really have yet is Slavic. "Alkonost" or "Raróg" could be nice for the Libertine: both reflect the notion of ambiguity (human and avian, dangerous yet potentially beneficial to humanity) and kinship (they're all related with other supernatural winged creatures, like the Sirin, which to me would be the Begotten stand-in). Also, it involves flying as the dangerous and intoxicating freedom at the risk of fall, which differs from the Ugallu and links to the Talassii in the right way, IMO.

                  As for the priests, that would be where I'd go Latin and pick Penates, or maybe Egeria (or the even less known and intriguing Vegoia). But Sumer/Akkad is also very tempting, with the Apkallu and Uanna/Adapa.

                  Ultimately I know you'll pick something great based on your own written take, just musing aloud, so to speak.
                  The internet cannot agree on Daphna, though it always bugged me that it didn't sound Hebrew. I should probably bug Heavy Arms for ideas-though having sat on Daphna for a day, I do like the sound of it.

                  I do like the idea of something Slavic, and heaven forbid the Roman base of the name only works in the context of the Anathema applied. That said, probably gonna poke through their gods and heroes.

                  The Inguma derive their name from the Basque deity of nightmares and dreams, so keeping it in the family, I figured the Basque god of the Sun is a better contrast, hence the Ehki.

                  Defintiely got some stuff to chew on, thanks.
                  Last edited by ArcaneArts; 09-19-2022, 04:45 PM.


                  Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Feminine pronouns, please.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                    Again, to be queer about it, my Makara experience was learning that the need for LBGT+ language was valid, and then working my from the umbrella terms to the specifics, and more importantly seeing how society is hostile towards LBGT+ individuals piece by piece. My Ugallu experience was suddenly realizing that, when I gave myself permission, I ended up thinking of myself in queer terms a lot and that came from somewhere-and once I knew where and why, I couldn't go back to just being a guy all the time.

                    A lot of the things about the Families are recurrent-the Ugallu's desert and the Namtaru's marsh and the Makara's ocean, and the Eshmaki's forest, and the Anakim's mountain all break down to the same some of pressures. The main difference is in how it's understood, the particular element that gets the rabbit heart running. In the same way that the difference between the Eshmaki and the Makara can be reduced to the difference between being blinded and being drowned, the particulars of the Makara and the Ugallu is the difference the timeframe and how available "choice" can seem. Being queer a third time, if a mermaid can't help but notice that siren call of the gay clubs, the phoenix can't ignore the burning of their heart.
                    Kinda tangential to the rest of the discussion, but this is exactly the kind of gay shit that got me into Beast to begin with. The Ugallu have eyes to fly with and wings to see.


                    Happy to be here
                    She/Her

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SomethingFishy View Post

                      Kinda tangential to the rest of the discussion, but this is exactly the kind of gay shit that got me into Beast to begin with. The Ugallu have eyes to fly with and wings to see.
                      Shockingly, I would actually argue that while it's fine for it to be this gay out of the books, it's not something I would want to continue on as a trend. Accusations that Beast is basically an LBGT supers game are overblown, and the arguments that Beast's gay allusions makes the LBGT community look like monsters are rooted in people not understanding how metaphors work, buuuuut part of the reason those claims got made is that a lot of writers leaned really hard into the allusions, to the final presentation's detriment.

                      I've made the point before that Beast, and Chronicles games, aren't SJW games so much as horror games written by SJW's, and a big thing the text needs going forward is making it clear that the act of becoming and being is something more universal than the LBGT experience of it. Beast needs to be a cup in that way, rather than the drink, and while there are absolutely some cups you want to use for certain drinks more than others, at the end of the day, the cup just needs to be drinkable from, if that metaphor makes sense.

                      But, like, 1) it's super easy, and 2) letting myself be queer has been a rather dominant sub-plot to my life since 2018, so of course it comes up a lot.

                      I suppose what I'm saying is Beast is not a queer allegory (or at least, no more so than every other gameline is), and work must always be done to keep it from being just that, but it's definitely a textual ally.


                      Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Feminine pronouns, please.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Oh, I totally agree. Each gameline is a conversation about something [some more thinly veiled than others], and it enriches the playspace to keep the conversation as wide as possible without losing focus. And while Beast's conversation is certainly accessible to queer people for a variety of reasons, it would absolutely be reductive to lean into that any more than any of the other games draws on queer experiences. I was mostly just popping in to be like, "this is good!" about your explanation. I could have been clearer.

                        But then again, maybe you knew that and just wanted to turn my comment into a teaching moment. Either way, glad something constructive came from it!


                        Happy to be here
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                        • #27
                          The Stribog, The Libertine Heroes and Forsworn of Confinement?


                          Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            The Stribog, The Libertine Heroes and Forsworn of Confinement?
                            I think the god of the sun,Dahzbog sounds better.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post

                              I think the god of the sun,Dahzbog sounds better.
                              I like my coffee black and my antithesis to confinement different in name.

                              Plus Dahzbog is a) already popular, b) pushing in on a sun god position that I think the Ehki better fill, and c) also doesn't fulfill my stealth satire purposes the way Stribog does.


                              Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                                I like my coffee black and my antithesis to confinement different in name.

                                Plus Dahzbog is a) already popular, b) pushing in on a sun god position that I think the Ehki better fill, and c) also doesn't fulfill my stealth satire purposes the way Stribog does.
                                I getcha. Stribog is new to me,gonna look him up

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