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Hello, So I did a little bit of digging and found next to nothing that clarifies this point- Presumably Changeling Arcadia and Mage Arcadia are not the same, but where are people finding this information? Everything I've seen in changeling 2e and mage 2e seem to almost hint that it's the same. All the descriptors are nigh identical. There is a small entry that notes (in regards to an acanthus awakening) in mage 2e :
"He strays from his usual pub and takes a stranger home; he’s never been with another man. The nameless lover leaves a messy bed and a poem... He takes his lover’s poem as a clue, and follows it to an unmapped forest... The lover doesn’t remember him. He doesn’t remember anything, and carries more poems, in his handwriting, stuffed into the pockets of an expensive coat. If they chase the first Mystery over the threshold — if they catch unseen strangers, or solve the amnesiac lover’s riddle — *secret woods flower into endless, bramble-edged paths*... Ancient mages wrote of a Watchtower dominated by twisted, vine-corrupted woods... Arcadia’s fairy lords are living forces of destiny. Don’t drink or eat what they offer. Don’t fall in love or lash out from hate, because you’ll trade your destiny for theirs. There are no trivial acts in the Watchtower of Fate and Time. *His lover was once a fairy’s slave.* What will he give up to win his memory back?... They’re never simple temptations with straightforward best answers, though *some enslave a soul to the Fae*, making them a bit worse than the rest..."
This, the amnesiac lover in particular, seems to almost directly reference a changeling and the hedge. There are other numerous aspects that are a bit interesting and very closely resemble or seem to imply the same place. Something else strikes me as very intersting in changeling- At several points the book they refer to changeling abilities or otherwise as Supernal:
" As their minion, tool, or plaything, some modicum of these Contracts applied to you as well. After all, of what use to an *arcane being* is a spy limited by mortal senses, and how quickly would they grow tired of *a plaything incapable of supernal dexterity?"
This part in particular directly references pledges as being supernal(or at the very least promises in general):
"But these already sworn deals are *not the only means by which the words of oaths hold supernal power* By investing your own Glamour into an oath, you can craft pledges that magically bind those involved in them. Carefully spun, pledges can offer a wellspring of power to those abide to their tenets — or a world of pain to those who treat them lightly."
The last one:
"He can choose a mythical beast, though he gains none of *its supernal powers* — only the physical form... He can also use the animal’s mundane senses and modes of movement; he can’t levitate, but as a winged dragon he could fly."
As for any denial that what mages summon from arcadia are not true fae, that is entirely possible- and thus dismissed by this changeling entry:
"Other strange beings cross through Arcadia, or live within it, hidden at the end of some long forgotten path, like the Huntsmen in their distant woods."
This changeling entry on hunters even seems to imply a heavy theme of Fate:
"Everything has rules. Rules and reliability. The crossbow and its quiver of 20 darling daughters are reliable. They do what you expect of them. You’re reliable. Your snares will catch, your sword will draw blood. The woods are treacherous. Without rules and order, the woods will consume you. The woods define you, and they are all you need."
Furthermore, Huntsmen's hearts are bound inside of a mortal's Bastion to anchor them, which makes an awful lot of sense if they are essentially binding them to the closest part of the astral to the fallen world.(bastions seem to directly be Oneiros given that the means of entering, and more, is the nigh identical- Goetia and Eidolons very much seem the same in most regards):
*This is their secret: to anchor them and allow them to manifest fully in the mortal world as creatures of Wyrd and flesh, the True Fae must hide the heart of a Huntsman within a Bastion. For months, even years, alien emotions plague some mortal’s sleep, thoughts of hunting in some dark and deep wood. A Huntsman can borrow some of the Gentry’s talent for oneiromancy and Hedge shaping, but they are forever blind to the Bastion that holds their heart — the one thing they cannot track down even with all their cunning, no matter how earnest their hidden longing.*
" All a mage needs to enter her own dreams is a Resolve + Composure roll to meditate while going to sleep; Mind spells bypass the need for meditation or are used to enter the dreams of others. Spells within dreams are cast normally, except that Sleepers do not treat spells affecting the dream or its narrative as obvious magic." (mage)
" Her player simply needs to succeed at a Resolve + Composure roll for her character to meditate while going to sleep to reach this state. The player may make this roll even if the changeling is already asleep, representing the character’s ability to realize she’s sleeping and take the reins, unless she suffers the Comatose Condition (p. 334). Contracts and other abilities work the same way in dreams that they do anywhere else. The changeling can target her own eidolons and any allies or intruders she finds there. She can also practice oneiromancy on her own dreams. If she leaves her own Bastion to wander the Hedge or other Bastions, she recovers no Willpower for that night’s rest." (changeling)
There are more similarities but this is already far too long so I will leave it with those as an example of my reasons for questioning this.
Tl;Dr- What I am looking for in particular is any *2e* reference or clarification that denies changeling arcadia being mage arcadia, or perhaps what mages, in general, think changeling arcadia is or why it is so similar in many regards. I am planning on running a changeling/mage campaign soon and we are running off of 2e in nigh exclusivity, and want to be sure that what I make represents the 2e lore as closely as possible, which as far as I have heard changed somewhat from 1e(though I will, of course, be applying personal preference in some aspects).
From other things I've seen it sounds like at some point it was confirmed that they are not the same, but I have not seen anything in 2e that says as such. Going by the core books alone it seems as though Mage directly references arcadia as per changeling. The only thing that sticks out here is that changeling arcadia is so vast with so many possible aspects- rather than just time and fate- though this could come from the fact that mages, as much as they think they know, still know little about the supernal realm in detail.
(edited for some miss-types)
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