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[Open Dev] 2e Revised Endowments

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  • #46
    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
    Not exactly. I didn't intend Area of Expertise to always be tied to a limiter.

    You mentioned The Ascending Ones so lets use them as an example for an Endowment that benefits from Area of Expertise without a limiter. I'd say their expertise is Diplomacy OO, Assassins OO.

    So you might have an Elixir that lets you speak in the language from before the Tower of Babel:

    Permission +2 : Speak any human language
    Permission +1 : Speak to creatures of the Inferno
    Permission +1 : Speak to creatures of the Empyerian
    Limitation -2 : Regents
    Area of Expertise -2 : Diplomacy.
    Total: 0

    Because speaking extra languages thematically falls under the heading of diplomacy you get the bonus. Similarly an elixir to enhance stealth falls under Assassins even if it's being used to spy and the hunter has no intent to kill anyone tonight.

    However an Elixir that boosts your firearms skill wouldn't fall under Area of Expertise unless it also had the Limitation that it only works outside of combat; since that's the key that distingishes an assassination from a gunfight.

    Ahh. I think I understand. I do feel that -2 might be a bit powerful, especially considering that Conspiracies may have a broader scope. Maybe something like Conspiracies have a total of -3 cost spread across multiple AoEs depending on their specialties, with Conspiracies like the Cainite Heresy or Les Mysteres doubling down on a specific AoE? So Malleus Maleficarum has Clerical Duties as -1, Heretical Beings (read: Witches, Demons, Vampires, etc.) as -1, and Vampires (specifically) as -1 with them possibly stacking while the Cainite Heresy has Vampires at -2 and one other miscellaneous AoE? Or even have Vampires as their only AoE, turning their two other AoEs into an extra -2 cost?


    Actually that does raise a question about Regents. Do they represent a bottle of completed potion, or laboratory stocked with ingredients?

    Considering that the Ascending Ones are alchemical, I feel that Reagents represent bottles of the necessary ingredients that go into the Elixir so a laboratory would probably be the best way for an Ascending One to get their Reagents (though I wonder if biohazardous waste or radioactive material would fit the bill as powerfully toxic substances; maybe cyanide?).

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    • #47
      Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
      That's one of the reasons I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Advanced Armory and Relic are absolutely shiny things you have. I can't seem to grock "you have a grenade in your backpack" as a Condition.
      It's EXACTLY how new Ammo and Capacity rules works in Hurt Locker. Basic idea is this - Conditions are 'effects' on the character, not very different than drinking potions in Action cRPG that rise or lower your PC stats. So each 'potion-like' equipment can be substituted by Condition it will have as effect, basically. And this way our grenades becomes Conditions that are end effects of this grenades usage. We only add some two little personal hacks to make this Condition more about Hunter PC than his target - and voila, our own new Endowment as Condition.

      King, I totally stole your Area of Expertise idea, because it's only have sense in balancing Value of Endowments.


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      • #48
        I like the concept of having more modular Endowments that can be reskinned between different Conspiracies and which streamline the cost/benefit of different Endowment categories (that being a bit of a mess in 1e). Right now the jargon is pretty intense though. 2e has already been developing a bit of a keyword glut and this is almost over the top. I'm also not totally sold on them being Conditions. I'm not really seeing the benefit of it from a design standpoint and it feels kind of out-of-flavor for both Endowments and Conditions.

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        • #49
          I agree the wording could use some work but it's clear this is a rough first draft and not a copypaste of what's going to be in the book.

          People seem to have a hard time with Conditions. Your character has dozens of them, is practically made up of them, but they're for the most part irrelevant. Resonant: Angry, doesn't matter unless your game deals with ephemeral entities that correspond to it. 'Has two hands' is a given and doesn't offer any advantages you might consider special, though holding two things at once is nice. But it goes away when you lose an arm. Just as the Informed Condition or Guilty Condition are how certain important knowledges affect your character.

          As a benefit of being considered Conditions, Endowments can be objects, like you would find in Aegis Kai Doru, powers you might find in Lucifuge, connections you might be able to find in Task Force Valkyrie, states of being you might find in Les Mysteres.

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          • #50
            So, anybody think 4 experience for each endowment is a bit much? Pricing isn't my thing, but I was thinking with the limiters, etc. to act as a balance the price would be lower.

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            • #51
              It's possible you might get a 'free' one with Status or something. It's at the higher end of powers, but not unheard of. Since you don't seem to have any need for a Power Stat and Endowments are the only 'power' thing we see it might be fine. I mean, you're not balancing out your Experiences between Rites, Moon Gifts, Renown and opening new rites, or Arcana, praxes, rotes, attainments and Gnosis. Aside from Endowments it looks like hunters just get Merits, Skills and Attributes. Plus each Endowment basically offers you a new way to get Beats.

              Too early to really say much about it beyond guessing.

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              • #52
                Yeah, got to say that 4 experience for each Endowment seems pretty damn high. Especially considering the how many powers from first edition would be weaker in this system, as LostLight's Hellfire example demonstrated (weaker if using the revised version in Mortal Remains). Can't say I'm too excited by this.

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                • #53

                  so, after testing the new system on an existing concept and working on a new one, let's check how hard it is to convert an whole new homebrew kind of Endowments to the new system. To check it, I think I'll try one of the more exotic systems- the Endowment of the first Conspiracy I've ever written: Raziel's Theo-Tech!

                  Endowment Concept- Tuning: similarly to Advanced Armory, all Theo Techs have an Indefinite duration. However, unlike the later, Theo Tech do not need to be refreshed, and do not have a limited number of uses per Chapter. Instead, they require a certain process called "Tuning", in which the hunter invest a part of her soul into the Endowment. That is represented by lowering the agent's Willpower dots by the Tuning's rating. The Value rating equal to double the Endowment's Tuning rating. The hunter can "un-tune" from the Endowment at any moment, although afterward the hunter suffers a certain negative Condition, such as Shaken or Spooked. If the hunter's total tuning reduce his Willpower to 0 or bellow, he immediately un-tunes from all of his Endowments and suffers from the Soul Shaken Condition.

                  While the official explanation for Tuning is that it use the hunter's own aura in order to activate, the truth is that the TT is nothing more than a vessel, connecting to a greater divine power. In truth, the hunter does not connect to the Theo Tech as much as use it to tune to that divine energy and invoke it down to earth through certain verses from the Old Testament, which are symbolized by the Endowment's serial number. By calling that verse out loud, the hunter may gain access to additional power- which is represented by the fact that each TT has an optional Action (calling the verse) connected to an optional Effect, Permission or Ban. Powerful optional effects may also include additional Limiters and Backlashes to balance the Endowment. It is worth to mention that most hunters are not aware of that option- unless they discovered it on their own, treat only members of Status 4 or above as having access to those optional effects.

                  Light Bearing Bow (Keyword; Indefinite, Scourge)

                  Going by the source material, the Light Bearing Bow was a 3 dot Theo Tech- that means it has Prerequisite of Status 3 and Tuning Toll of 3- giving it a total Value of -9. Giving it the ability to deal damage like a crossbow rise it to -7, while Range of Line of Sight rise it to -4. The ability to pass through any Concealment sounds like a solid +3 Effect, bringing it to -1, which would be balanced with the Limiter. Finally, the Action optional bonus balance up with the ability to attack beings in the Twilight.

                  The Light Bearing Bow is one of Raziel's most famous weapons. Made out of the special, blackish blue material from which all TTs are made and engraved with the serial number of 10.14.12, this weapon can conjure arrows made of pure energy, shining like stars which has fallen from the heaven. Those bullets can pass through any obstacle as if it was made out of mist, stopping only when they hit living flesh or go out of range and dissipate- although beings who are not material are still immune to the weapon's capabilities. Usually.

                  Effects

                  • Tuning 3
                  • Action (optional): "How have you fallen from Heavens, Morning Star, son of Dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who brought nations low!"
                  Bearing Heaven's Light: [Firearms + Dexterity]; aim the weapon toward the enemy and shoot. That's all you need to do- the Bow would take care of the rest.

                  Roll Results

                  Success:
                  You manage to hit the target, dealing 2 points of lethal damage per success. In case you were using the Action, you can also see and target beings in the Twilight.

                  Exceptional:
                  The bullet you conjured resonates with burning power, a weapon forged by heaven itself... or perhaps by hell. At any case, the damage it deals is now aggravated.

                  Failure:
                  you miss the target, but no harm is found.

                  Dramatic:
                  Something went wrong while handling the Bow, and the arrow explodes between your hands. You suffer from one point of lethal damage.

                  Limiters
                  • Limit: if the target is a being of empyrean nature, then it can command the Bow to stop functioning.

                  Resolve: once the hunter un-tunes from the Endowment, he sees a vision of himself, flying in the heavens while cloaked with shining light.. until for some reason, he starts to fall down to earth until hitting the ground like a falling star. While the details usually vary from hunter to hunter, the pattern stays the same. That experience leaves the hunter with the Shaken Condition.

                  Resolution: un-tune from the Endowment
                  Beat: n/a

                  Prerequisites
                  • Prerequisite: Raziel Ltd Status (ooo)

                  Endowment Source: member of Raziel Ltd's Rakia Project


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                  • #54
                    so, summing up my experience from working the new system-

                    I must say that it is somewhat more complicated from the old version, and it takes some time to get used to it. However, one you do, the process starts to become much more fluid. While making new Endowments of existing categories doesn't seem to become any easier, inventing an whole new Endowment types for new Conspiracies does, as the only thing that changes is the Concept- while the rest of the process is already laid out. I still wonder how the system would handle Endowments which are based around stealing the powers of other beings, such as Setto or the Rite of Hecate, instead of a collection of existing powers.

                    Anyway, I've also gave it a thought and I think I've understood the difference between the new system and the merit system- at least thematically. In the old system, Endowments are shiny things you have- be them weapons, relics or occult rites. In the new system, Endowments change into becoming "access" to those things- for example, if you have a Supernatural Merit, it belongs to you. If you have an Endowment with the same effect, it belongs to the Conspiracy- and it only "lends" you the ability to use its resources. I must say that it is an interesting change in attitude, which also answers the "what happens to Endowments when you leave the Conspiracy" (I would rule that you get the exp refunded and you may use them to buy some of the effects as Supernatural Merits), although it may stand as a problem in the case of the Lucifuge (as usual)- but that depends on how Castigations would turn up in the new edition (that is, abilities which are part of you, or rites which use you demonic blood as power source).


                    Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

                    "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                    I now blog in here

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      I agree the wording could use some work but it's clear this is a rough first draft and not a copypaste of what's going to be in the book.

                      People seem to have a hard time with Conditions. Your character has dozens of them, is practically made up of them, but they're for the most part irrelevant. Resonant: Angry, doesn't matter unless your game deals with ephemeral entities that correspond to it. 'Has two hands' is a given and doesn't offer any advantages you might consider special, though holding two things at once is nice. But it goes away when you lose an arm. Just as the Informed Condition or Guilty Condition are how certain important knowledges affect your character.

                      As a benefit of being considered Conditions, Endowments can be objects, like you would find in Aegis Kai Doru, powers you might find in Lucifuge, connections you might be able to find in Task Force Valkyrie, states of being you might find in Les Mysteres.
                      Oh certainly. This is just my critique of what's been presented in its current form. Trying to nudge the design in a direction I'd prefer.

                      I understand the concept and system of Conditions, but what a Condition is supposed to represent varies wildly throughout the growing body of second edition. The answer increasingly seems to be "just about anything." That's not necessarily a bad answer, but personally I wish they were defined a little more narrowly. Like you said, characters are increasingly dragging around piles worth of Conditions, and from my own perspective at least its becoming a little unwieldy. Everyone wants to get the most leverage out of the new design feature, but not everything necessarily needs to interact with it.

                      Hunters are in a weird position because most other gamelines involve an explicitly supernatural being whose mojo gets its own special category. Hunters do not have this (and I believe should continue not having it), but it begs the question of where they put their supernatural goodies. Merits I thought were a fine solution (even if the cost and balance of them were horribly off-kilter between different groups), and I think could still work fine in 2e given how powerful other Merits already are in the system. All that really needs to be fixed is the aforementioned cost/balance structure, which would already need to happen to bring them into line with the 2e experience model.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Monghani View Post
                        While I do love Cheiron Group with a passion I'll be the first to admit they probably make more sense over in Deviant with Agents being Loyalists or Renegades.
                        Having a demon hand and having a demon hand that cracks your soul like an egg and may eat you from the inside out are two different things.

                        So plenty of room for both.

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                        • #57
                          While I'd love to see Cheiron Group appear in Deviant as well, I definitely don't want to lose them in Hunter.

                          More than anything else Cheiron Group was what hooked me into Hunter: the Vigil.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                            While I'd love to see Cheiron Group appear in Deviant as well, I definitely don't want to lose them in Hunter.

                            More than anything else Cheiron Group was what hooked me into Hunter: the Vigil.
                            It's similar with me.
                            I LOVE the Cheiron Group, and I don't want them gone from Hunter.
                            But exactly because I love them, I want to see them in Deviant as well.

                            I have always seen Hunter as "playing the bad guys to the bad guys", so making it a bit more official would just make me happy.

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                            • #59
                              Well, it isn't a complete hunter game unless all the tropes are covered. You need corporate, government, religious, Indiana Jones, ghost busters without the proton packs, children of demons, etc. If Cheiron didn't exist, someone would need to invent it. VALKYRIE is close, but serves its own purpose. Hunter needs somebody to take up the vigil with the objective of trying to make a profit. Personally, I would want Deviant to have a corporate entity that makes Cheiron look like a charity (a legit one).

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                              • #60
                                Honestly, AKD is most likely the one that didn't make the cut. Remember, Monica forgot the 1e core had 6 conspiracies. Between Cheiron, AKD, and Maleus, which one is the most forgettable. Much as I love AKD, they are the weakest link in terms of 1e core Conspiracies.


                                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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