Hunter Playtest!

[Ruger]

Well, not necessarily worse, the goal is to tell a story, not keep as high an Integrity as possible. They'd be reinforced by their Code but zealously so and it could push them to extremes.

I'm guessing it's a way to keep hunters from always being 'regular Joe that isn't affected by anything they do because they had a high Resolve.'

Well an Exceptional Success keeps integrity just as high as a normal Success does, it just has worst side effects. And it isn't necessarily those who keep their code zealously that get exceptional successes-in fact, those with the stats and behavior that keep their Integrity high are more likely to exceptionally succeed, and those with high Integrity are "basically the same" as before their hunter career. The kind of hunter that goes around killing and torturing is more likely to outright fail and much less likely to get an exceptional success.

The way it is set up means that those with a better reason to do what they do have a good chance to do worse. Like lets say you have a character rolling 8 dice. They have a ~6% chance to fail a roll without any penalties and a ~12% to Exceptionally succeed. If they decide to torture a monster in the name of the Code, then they take a -2 dice penalty, and have an 11.7% chance to fail and only a ~4% chance to exceptionally succeed (the "negative effect" we were talking about.) If instead they are a new hunter protecting an innocent grandma with a baby carriage, they get a +2 dice bonus. Now they have a ~3% chance to fail, and 20% chance to exceptionally succeed.

So in the end, the guy doing the most moral thing has the best chance to walk out of it being obsessed with killing monsters.

Edit:

Also not saying that they should just have regular Joe integrity, and I do think they are trying for a theme here. It just doesn't really work well in this system to have negative effects for Exceptional Successes.

Most of the Code breaks seem like they are things a slasher would do, though.

This isn't from the Code breaks, it is from any breaking point (unless I really misunderstood something). These breaking points include things like "Seeing a supernatural", "Killing a monster", and "Losing a loved one". All these things are something that the average hunter is expected to do, and many of them are fully beyond the character's control.

[nofather]

So in the end, the guy doing the most moral thing has the best chance to walk out of it being obsessed with killing monsters.

Very few of the Code breaks can be considered moral. Especially if you've decided to live by a Code. They're invariably about breaking the Code you've decided to live by.

This isn't from the Code breaks, it is from any breaking point (unless I really misunderstood something). These breaking points include things like "Seeing a supernatural", "Killing a monster", and "Losing a loved one". All these things are something that the average hunter is expected to do, and many of them are fully beyond the character's control.

Seeing a supernatural effect or entity for the first time is the one, and only at high Integrity, once you have 6 Integrity it's never an issue again. And it's 'the first time' killing a particular monster. General killing doesn't seem to be a big deal. In fact it can be a result of the Obsession or Addiction you get, and you can get an extra Beat for doing it.

This is pretty much in line with the media depictions of hunters like the Winchesters.

The alternative is a person who can justify any breaking of their Code and any pain they inflict on others, monster or human and be simply reaffirmed by any loss.

[Diggs]

I have a concern about the Touchstone system for Hunter. I have no issue with the addition and the bonuses to Integrity rolls, but the penalty seems like it could be a problem with certain play-styles. I see the television series Supernatural as portraying hunters without Touchstones for long periods of time that probably have low Integrity but they seem stable there.

If people are playtesting would they look at the viability of hunting without Touchstones and maintaining Integrity (at least 3). I realize the breaking points are few and farther between, but if I read it correctly that would be a minimum -4 penalty. Seems harsh. It is supposed to be harsh in Vampire. Hunter is a different game.

[nofather]

I see the television series Supernatural as portraying hunters without Touchstones for long periods of time that probably have low Integrity but they seem stable there.

I think the family Journal would have counted (Journal is one of the sample Touchstones), especially as a link to their father. And Bobby would count as 'In on It' at least during most of his appearances he isn't a hunter so much as a support unit for hunters.

[Ruger]

Very few of the Code breaks can be considered moral. Especially if you've decided to live by a Code. They're invariably about breaking the Code you've decided to live by.



Seeing a supernatural effect or entity for the first time is the one, and only at high Integrity, once you have 6 Integrity it's never an issue again. And it's 'the first time' killing a particular monster. General killing doesn't seem to be a big deal. In fact it can be a result of the Obsession or Addiction you get, and you can get an extra Beat for doing it.

This is pretty much in line with the media depictions of hunters like the Winchesters.

The alternative is a person who can justify any breaking of their Code and any pain they inflict on others, monster or human and be simply reaffirmed by any loss.

I'm not sure I get your point. If it is "Low Integrity Characters don't have to worry about exceptional successes", then I assure you you are correct. But I fail to see how this has bearing on this conversation. Sure, addiction can get you beats. Are you going to argue being addicted to mutilating monster corpses can be considered a positive side effect? It's always a breaking point to lose a loved one, or something like your house. Killing something without dread powers is a breaking point for everyone who isn't super low integrity (and super-low integrity characters don't have to worry about exceptional successes.))

Exceptional success are, in my view (and in the view of at least some others) worse than normal successes under this system. Nothing you said is really relevant to that- at best, it just means the people with the "strongest minds" crack easiest under the current system. The main point is that: Exceptional Successes shouldn't be a bad thing, or it leads to weird situations.

[nofather]

Are you going to argue being addicted to mutilating monster corpses can be considered a positive side effect? It's always a breaking point to lose a loved one, or something like your house. Killing something without dread powers is a breaking point for everyone who isn't super low integrity (and super-low integrity characters don't have to worry about exceptional successes.))

It's losing a loved one or something like your house due to the Vigil or a supernatural, not just losing them. And yes, killing ordinary humans you follow a Code not to kill is a Breaking Point.

But the thrust of my argument here is that from a story perspective, yes, a character who gets an egotistical quirk, like an Addiction or Obsession, due to their being so sure of themselves, is better than 'now you can justify anything.' It's not necessarily a beneficial thing for a character, though it can lead to growth more than an unquestioning belief that what you did was right.

[Ruger]

It's losing a loved one or something like your house due to the Vigil or a supernatural, not just losing them. And yes, killing ordinary humans you follow a Code not to kill is a Breaking Point.

But the thrust of my argument here is that from a story perspective, yes, a character who gets an egotistical quirk, like an Addiction or Obsession, due to their being so sure of themselves, is better than 'now you can justify anything.' It's not necessarily a beneficial thing for a character, though it can lead to growth more than an unquestioning belief that what you did was right.

Its losing your house because of the supernatural or due to the Vigil. Lose your house because the Vigil lost you your job? Breaking point. Lose your house because a Vampire Banker is working against you? Breaking point. And no, it is a Breaking point for all Hunters. Code violations are violations for all hunters. They arn't violations of "a" code, they are violations of "the" code. At least as far as I have read it. Its been a long day >_>.

It isn't the quirk itself that is bad. Its that it is worse (both in and out of story) then just succeeding normally. If the character had something to gain from this (or at least more than beats with major downsides and 9 agains), then it would be great. If they offered a +2 bonus like the lesser tiers did, even with downsides, it would be fine. It still leads to strange situations, like a first time hunter seeing a ghost and then randomly deciding "Well that was interesting. Now that I have come out of this spookyness unhindered, I feel like RIPPING AND TEARING EVERY MONSTER TO DEATH!"
(And yes, obviously, you probably fit the breaking points into what actually happens. It is just another example.).

[nofather]

Its losing your house because of the supernatural or due to the Vigil. Lose your house because the Vigil lost you your job? Breaking point. Lose your house because a Vampire Banker is working against you? Breaking point. And no, it is a Breaking point for all Hunters. Code violations are violations for all hunters. They arn't violations of "a" code, they are violations of "the" code. At least as far as I have read it. Its been a long day

My point was that the hunter swore a Code (the Code itself is different, but the basic is human life over monsters). Breaking that code should result in a Breaking Point, you can justify it, but that's not necessarily a good thing for you to do psychologically. Part of your complaint was that killing normal humans is a Breaking Point, even though it's against the Code.

It isn't the quirk itself that is bad. Its that it is worse (both in and out of story) then just succeeding normally. If the character had something to gain from this (or at least more than beats with major downsides and 9 agains), then it would be great. If they offered a +2 bonus like the lesser tiers did, even with downsides, it would be fine.

The regular Success also gives you Conditions. I think the difference is the 'regular' Success counts as a sort of lackluster victory 'forging scar tissue around her soul thick enough to take the strain,' while the Exceptional one as a sort of overconfident thrill that 'pushes a wedge between herself and the rest of humanity.'

It still leads to strange situations, like a first time hunter seeing a ghost and then randomly deciding "Well that was interesting. Now that I have come out of this spookyness unhindered, I feel like RIPPING AND TEARING EVERY MONSTER TO DEATH!"

You can run it that way, if you want. I would agree that that would be strange. Traditionally a Condition going to be related to the source. So seeing your first ghost, you might become Obsessed with finding other ghosts because it was a bit of a thrill to do so originally. Alternatively you might become Obsessed with finding information about that ghost, since it was so striking.

(And yes, obviously, you probably fit the breaking points into what actually happens. It is just another example.)

You might need a better example. But really I'd just suggest you try playing it and post about your experience doing so.

[Second Chances]

So, I've got a pitch written up for the playtest PbP game. I'd like to get things rolling in the next 24 hour, since PbP goes slow, and I want this to be useful for everyone. If you are interested, please let me know ASAP.

Arkham, Massachusetts - 1693

Witches stalk the land. South of Arkham, the Salem Witch Trials are in full swing, and they are looking for you. You know you are a witch. The blood of the Devil himself runs in your veins. You are more than just a hellspawned pagan. You are Lucifuge. You have taken up the Vigil to defend humanity and send your siblings back to hell.

That doesn't make you safe from the predations of other monsters though. From Boston to Innsmouth, hunters report a demon called the Pallid Mask stalking the land, dressed in tattered yellow robes. The elders of the Lucifuge have recalled one of their most venerated warriors, Brian Bartholomew, and partnered him with your cell to track down this demon before it turns Arkham town into a bloody smear on the river. From the basement of the Miskatonic University, they give you your orders, and may the grace of God protect you from demon and human alike...

Yup, we're going there.

[Satchel]

The regular Success also gives you Conditions. I think the difference is the 'regular' Success counts as a sort of lackluster victory 'forging scar tissue around her soul thick enough to take the strain,' while the Exceptional one as a sort of overconfident thrill that 'pushes a wedge between herself and the rest of humanity.'

It's also worth noting that Hunter's Integrity breaking points differ from ordinary Integrity breaking points in the opposite direction that Demon's compromise rolls do: whereas risking Cover makes you Shaken or Spooked or Guilty if you succeed at keeping your pretense of humanity up, keeping to the Code means you get the normal mortal pick of Conditions on a failed roll, and a successful roll saddles you with obsessions, vendettas, or plain hyper-secrecy.

Ordinary mortals will eventually find their self-image melting under constant exposure to the supernatural, but any hunter who's at least Vigilant has reached the point where even the novel instances of mere witnessing don't scratch the paint anymore, and that means something for their psychology.

[Ruger]

Again, I am not saying it is bad. It is just strange. It is, as far as I can remember, the only roll were getting an exceptional success is a bad thing. Rolling exceptional successes on a firearms hit means you hit really well. You don't hit so well that the bullet ricochets and hits you. If you roll exceptionally well on a Research roll, you do well on research. You don't become obsessed with the thing you are researching. If you roll exceptional success on a Hunter breaking point...then you would have been better off rolling "worse".

I know the regular successes give you Conditions. That is the main issue-the conditions you get for the regular success are situationally useful. Vendetta gives you +2 to getting revenge, a free Vice that gets you extra Willpower for seeking that revenge, and seems to explicitly work on both violent and nonviolent means of revenge. I'm sure even Stoic has its uses, and the final option would be the temporary version of Obsession. These are all better than Addiction, and most of them are better in many cases then the persistent Obsession.

For a serious example, lets say you are playing a group of rookie Union members out on patrol. Nobody in the group is very experienced, everyone is jumpy. By a twist of fate, they run into a weak vampire currently enjoying a midnight snack. He is incredibly annoyed at this interruption, and decides to remove the witnesses.

He opens up with a mind control move, going after the biggest Hunter. Everyone takes a breaking point, everyone passes with normal success (because becoming obsessed with the first supernatural you see has some sense.) The mind-controlled hunter then hits his friend with a baseball bat he was carrying, dealing a couple of Lethal. The fight continues on, eventually ending with the Vampire being killed.

The mind controlled hunter would have to roll a Breaking Point (Lets call it "Significant Injury" rather than "Betrayal", given he had no choice in it). As a starting character he has a +2 bonus from default Touchstone, which is canceled out by his -2 from being mind controlled. The hunter who killed the bloodsucker would also get the default +2 from a touchstone, add in +2 for acting to protect his comrades, and a -1 from first time killing a vampire.

Now lets say Mr. +3 has 3 in both relevant stats. That gives him 9 dice total, somewhere around 15% chance of an exceptional success. Not great odds, but look at that! He got it! Now his player has a choice: He can gain The Obsession Condition with a monster. This isn't much a choice: He doesn't currently have any particular monster to be obsessed with. It seems to suggest it is for a single monster rather than a group, and the only monster this guy has ever seen is dust in the wind. So his only practical choice is to take the Addiction condition for killing monsters.
So on patrol, in the act of defending his town and comrades from a murderous monster, he became as crazy about monster killing as a drunk is about alcohol.

Now what about the mind controlled man? Well he also happens to have 3 in both relevant stats, giving him 6 dice total. ~11% chance of failure, ~11% chance of exceptional success. He gets a normal success and chooses Vendetta-after all, this Vampire is very much to blame for what he has done. Then, when the vampire ordered him to kill his comrade, he was able to remove the control with the help of these bonus dice-removing the mind control is very much the first step to getting revenge. Later when they killed the Vampire, his revenge is complete and he goes back to normal.

[Satchel]

Again, I am not saying it is bad. It is just strange. It is, as far as I can remember, the only roll were getting an exceptional success is a bad thing.

There are others and just like here they're for things where the roll happening at all is a risk. Here the consequences of being a hardened veteran monster-hunter who has a lot to lose are basically that you're more likely to respond to supernatural danger by acting like a hardened veteran monster-hunter who has a lot to lose.

The type of hunter most likely to gain an exceptional success on a breaking point roll is (likely due to hard-won experience) as driven and unflappable as a human being can be, acts in service of their Virtue whenever possible, gets between people and monsters whenever possible, acts on behalf of their monster-hunting group whenever they do anything that might give a normal person pause, relentlessly pursues meaningful positive interaction with people they trust, and has multiple Touchstones based around their need for anchors against the degenerative effects of actively pursuing the destruction of supernatural horrors beyond mortal comfort.

This is also the exact sort of character who has a really easy time justifying the Integrity purchase that lets them resolve a consequent Addiction to something like making sure the monsters know not to mess with them/hurt, or else violently purge the Obsession driving them to bring a swift end to a monstrous nemesis in defense of their connections to other people.

(It's worth noting that the involuntary consequences of Addicted as a Condition are most manageable with high Resistance Attributes like the ones that specifically go into breaking point rolls — if you've got Resolve 4 and Composure 5, losing one die from those rolls because you couldn't take a trophy from your latest kill is still only bringing you down to above-average.)

[Diggs]

I think the family Journal would have counted (Journal is one of the sample Touchstones), especially as a link to their father. And Bobby would count as 'In on It' at least during most of his appearances he isn't a hunter so much as a support unit for hunters.

Yes, hence I qualified a lack of Touchstones with "for long periods of time". Sometimes they have none, for a while. I did not think of a clearer way to convey this.

[Leliel]

This is also the exact sort of character who has a really easy time justifying the Integrity purchase that lets them resolve a consequent Addiction to something like making sure the monsters know not to mess with them/hurt, or else violently purge the Obsession driving them to bring a swift end to a monstrous nemesis in defense of their connections to other people.
\

The problem is, while that is justified, buying Integrity still costs XP, and Addiction is still an entirely bad Condition-Obsession can help in some aspects, but Addiction is a sign things have gone wrong in someone's mind. Exceptional Success is supposed to represent not only soaking the mental blow, but doing it with style.

I'm fine with hunters having a way of reacting to stress positively that doesn't resemble normal ways, but developing a psychological reliance on being focused on by a target? That doesn't sound like someone who is in the higher echelons of Integrity in the very scale of the playtest, which is generally who will be having an Exceptional Success in the first place.

[milo v3]

The "Calling a Spade a Spade" section seems opposed to compacts which don't kill monsters like Talbot Group.