Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer: Hunter Edition

[Ruger]

Because everyone else has one, why not the Hunter tab?
No actual question to start this out elegantly. So we can pretend that above thing was a non-rhetorical question.

[Vent0]

Because everyone else has one, why not the Hunter tab?
No actual question to start this out elegantly. So we can pretend that above thing was a non-rhetorical question.

How much does the typical Ashwood Abbey party cost? Not factoring in the bribery to overlook the illegal substances, or the "other entertainment". When is it being too cheap or excessive, you know?

[Primordial newcomer]

Depends. From earlier readings and the compacts and conspiracies, some parties can have really crappy tables under fancy tablecloths so they can stake vampires there with easy to break off table-legs

If you just mean there classic hedonist parties, i would say hundreds of thousands if you include things from bribery of the law to keeping supernatural guest under wraps

[Ruger]

How much does the typical Ashwood Abbey party cost? Not factoring in the bribery to overlook the illegal substances, or the "other entertainment". When is it being too cheap or excessive, you know?

I'd say it depends on the particular party and faction throwing it. I wouldn't bet "excessive" comes around too often, unless you make yourself look nouveau riche. The C&C rules say they can throw one big party (20-100 people) per story, without having to pay resources. So I'd say 3-4 dots of Cash worth if they are being fancy, 2-3 if they are roughing it, and 5 if they are just trying to show off.

I also know nothing about holding fancy parties, so who knows :V

[Primordial newcomer]

Can hunters make good antagonist for mage players? Pretty sure Mages are way more powerful in the game rules for awakening, and don't even think the witch focused conspiracies could be consistently good antagonists. This is especially considering a writer saying the witches you fight are mostly hedge witches

[nofather]

Can hunters make good antagonist for mage players?

No not at all.

[ArcaneArts]

THey're more moral conflict than..you know, threatening conflict.

[Ruger]

Can hunters make good antagonist for mage players? Pretty sure Mages are way more powerful in the game rules for awakening, and don't even think the witch focused conspiracies could be consistently good antagonists. This is especially considering a writer saying the witches you fight are mostly hedge witches

Sure, if you want them too. The major annoyance is the memory thing, so setting up squads with a sleepwalker directing a group of sleepers would theoretically be effective. If you are willing to give them cheap tactics, they could be pretty dangerous. Especially if you use the groups that have abilities that counter magic.

I'd talk more but am kinda out of time :V.

[Primordial newcomer]

Ok. So the general consensus is they just aren't practical as a "crap we need to get rid of these guys" conflict

[ArcaneArts]

Ok. So the general consensus is they just aren't practical as a "crap we need to get rid of these guys" conflict

If you're talking from a primary antagonist point of view, definitely. From a secondary antagonist point of view?

SLeepers can be definite Pains in the Ass once they realize direct conflict isn't going to go anywhere, and even though indirect conflict is still a Mage's territory, an exploding water heater is still an exploding water heater. That said, they definitely form the sense of "Well now what?" because mages can easily deal with them, but how they do so reflects on them as people. Well-prepared mages won't really have a problem, but their pricking can raise questions, and even cause some damage if you don't do something, which leads to the Ethical Questions

Sleepwalkers can be more equipped, but often times unless they're specialists with their supernatural powers, it's like bringing a pistol to a gatling gun fight. Still, some oomphs and clever decisions can make increase the probability of being a thing you have to address, even if they aren't the Biggest Deal. Hell, if you rule that groups like the Knights of Saint George's ability do basically affect the Awakened, they can even be a very significant thorn.

But you'll never make them a big ass deal on threat alone, and they are most effecacious if they are affecting the edges of a conflict rather than being the main thing. Both Sleepers and SLeepwalkers, even the really equipped ones, just aren't prepared for the gnostically rich as anything more than jackals to others efforts.

So, less Scooby Gang in your face, more you're worn out, expended, and done after a fight with the Tremere-and that's when the Scooby Gang decide to drop a bowling ball on your head.

[Michael]

Ok. So the general consensus is they just aren't practical as a "crap we need to get rid of these guys" conflict

Sorry, but what does that mean?

[Primordial newcomer]

I think I get what you mean arcane. They are like the Barret group with vampires. They may not be a threat that mages actually feel threatened by, but that same arrogance leads to them becoming a nuisance (a dangerous one at that)

Michael I meant they don't make mages see them as a dangerous threat

[Ruger]

In the worst case, you would just have to pull a "Tucker's Kabolds". An exploding water heater is still an exploding water heater, but normal people can explode water heaters just fine if they have a bit of explosives. If they use PC tactics but NPC numbers, they could be a significant threat (especially if you are willing to buff them to PC-like competence).

So here are the major problems with hunting Mages (from both a Hunter PC/NPC perspective)
1. Quiescence, Sleepers forget seeing magic and have to make breaking points. They still realize what is going on when it happens, but putting memories of it back together sucks.
Solution: Have some sleepwalkers, who don't forget things, lead any Sleepers. T3 hunters with endowments tend to be Sleepwalkers, so you could plausibly send whole squads if you wanted, though sending sleepwalkers to add a slight risk of Paradox helps.

2. Mages are tough and versatile.
Solution: Well there isn't a great one that keeps it fun :V. Make the Hunters competent and well-equipped. Give them good tactics. Do what PCs would try to do. Ambushes, sniping, attacking friends and loved ones, attacking them when they are vulnerable, laying traps and explosives, the works. Outnumber the PCs by a good extent. Exhaust them with continued attacks. Make them feel like an endless wave. If your mages can beat the enemy 5-1 without breaking a sweat, send 7-1 hunters. If they can beat 7-1, send 10-1. NPCs have the advantage that random mook's deaths don't mean much, while one PC death is significant. Send anti-mage Endowments after them, making up new ones if you want. Try not to overdo it to the point the Mages die in a single turn.

We could run some white/grey room fights if you want to see how it would work in action, or just for fun :P.

It should be noted that you can still tell a story even with under-powered antagonist, though it would probably be a different type of story than usual

[ArcaneArts]

On a different note, no, the Barrett Commission is straight up a threat to vampires. Their power in terms of position, prestige, and resources mixed in with a savvy on protocol for approaching identified vampires makes vampires playing mortal politics a gamble, because while Barrett doesn't have the fancy supernatural powers, they've got cunning and ruthlessness and the mundane power to make up for it.

And yeah, Ruger's got it for conflict with the Awakened,.

[Primordial newcomer]

Thanks for the in depth explanation Ruger. I'll keep not of NPC competence, tactics, anti mage endowments, and numbers.

ArcaneArts really? Well I guess I'm gonna be talking to my Requiem storyteller about the Barret commission (loved the group, never realised you can play them as a truly dangerous group for vampire players though)