Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer: Hunter Edition

[Ruger]

The problem is actually whether 'you' can. Cunning and ruthlessness are not things on a character sheet, your ST needs to act them out. There are plenty of people who have tried to play Commission style hunters against players only for the PCs to immediately snap them in half at the first opportunity.

Also, there's the serious issue of planning what comes after. I've seen a few examples of STs assuming that their players are simply going to let a Hunter ambush go and move on, assuming that Hunter organisations can just retreat into the shadows. The problem is that by default there's nothing really stopping a supernatural being from tracking a conspiracy to it's HQ. Maybe that's the game you want, but it might seems a little weird for a centuries old conspiracy to be brought down so easily.

I mean its not like taking out the HQ destroys the conspiracy. CEOs, generals, and clergy can be replaced easy, and Hunters probably have an efficient chain of command just in case that happens.
Take out the local church? Not like it is going to stop the global organization of MalMal.
Go to the Vatican and take out the leaders? They appoint new ones in an instant, and now you made them REALLY angry.

Its kind of a Hunter theme. One of us dies, the vigil lives on. A conspiracy won't really die unless you crush it to the point every member is gone.

[Primordial newcomer]

I trust my Storyteller friend just fine, he's put hunter groups in our games before and takes advantage of the political landscape of the Requiem extensively, both to the fun and challenge for the group

[ArcaneArts]

The problem is actually whether 'you' can. Cunning and ruthlessness are not things on a character sheet, your ST needs to act them out. There are plenty of people who have tried to play Commission style hunters against players only for the PCs to immediately snap them in half at the first opportunity.

Also, there's the serious issue of planning what comes after. I've seen a few examples of STs assuming that their players are simply going to let a Hunter ambush go and move on, assuming that Hunter organisations can just retreat into the shadows. The problem is that by default there's nothing really stopping a supernatural being from tracking a conspiracy to it's HQ. Maybe that's the game you want, but it might seems a little weird for a centuries old conspiracy to be brought down so easily.

Research, practice, roleplay. Watch movies and read stories, get into conversation about how you'd do this one thing and what would be done in response, ask questions to friends who seem like they would get it more, and keep at it.

It's a skill, people can learn them.

[Primordial newcomer]

The good rule of thumb for NPC's is "How would players approach this and win?" and then do that.

And a good rule of thumb for how they do that is Never Underestimate The Power of Position and Resources. Status is one of the most powerful Merits in any game, period.

True that

Michael the Barret Commission is stated to hang back just like vampires to avoid direct confrontation. Besides it's not like the commission sleeps at day, imagine as a vampire waking up to begin your night, and see your favorite hunting grounds may be going away. Finally If a Barret commission hunter were to be found in public, i bet he would put himself in a position to where the vampire would be in trouble killing him

[Vent0]

The problem is actually whether 'you' can. Cunning and ruthlessness are not things on a character sheet, your ST needs to act them out. There are plenty of people who have tried to play Commission style hunters against players only for the PCs to immediately snap them in half at the first opportunity.

Also, there's the serious issue of planning what comes after. I've seen a few examples of STs assuming that their players are simply going to let a Hunter ambush go and move on, assuming that Hunter organisations can just retreat into the shadows. The problem is that by default there's nothing really stopping a supernatural being from tracking a conspiracy to it's HQ. Maybe that's the game you want, but it might seems a little weird for a centuries old conspiracy to be brought down so easily.

To mitigate this - layers and layers of cutouts and abstraction. Don't let the PCs know who the real controllers are, if you can help it. Don't leave convenient notes on assassin calling out their employers.

All they should know is some thugs or mercenaries jumped them with fire, or a cell of Tier 1 Hunters put them on a list. Even the assailants don't know much more about who hired them or leaked the info. Make the PCs work at finding out the true culprit, or risk alienating others by flailing recklessly.

Again, depending on the kind of game you want.

[Michael]

really? Well I guess I'm gonna be talking to my Requiem storyteller about the Barret commission (loved the group, never realised you can play them as a truly dangerous group for vampire players though)

The problem is actually whether 'you' can. Cunning and ruthlessness are not things on a character sheet, your ST needs to act them out. There are plenty of people who have tried to play Commission style hunters against players only for the PCs to immediately snap them in half at the first opportunity.

Also, there's the serious issue of planning what comes after. I've seen a few examples of STs assuming that their players are simply going to let a Hunter ambush go and move on, assuming that Hunter organisations can just retreat into the shadows. The problem is that by default there's nothing really stopping a supernatural being from tracking a conspiracy to it's HQ. Maybe that's the game you want, but it might seems a little weird for a centuries old conspiracy to be brought down so easily.

[ArcaneArts]

Thanks for the in depth explanation Ruger. I'll keep not of NPC competence, tactics, anti mage endowments, and numbers.

ArcaneArts really? Well I guess I'm gonna be talking to my Requiem storyteller about the Barret commission (loved the group, never realised you can play them as a truly dangerous group for vampire players though)

The good rule of thumb for NPC's is "How would players approach this and win?" and then do that.

And a good rule of thumb for how they do that is Never Underestimate The Power of Position and Resources. Status is one of the most powerful Merits in any game, period.

[Primordial newcomer]

Thanks for the in depth explanation Ruger. I'll keep not of NPC competence, tactics, anti mage endowments, and numbers.

ArcaneArts really? Well I guess I'm gonna be talking to my Requiem storyteller about the Barret commission (loved the group, never realised you can play them as a truly dangerous group for vampire players though)

[ArcaneArts]

On a different note, no, the Barrett Commission is straight up a threat to vampires. Their power in terms of position, prestige, and resources mixed in with a savvy on protocol for approaching identified vampires makes vampires playing mortal politics a gamble, because while Barrett doesn't have the fancy supernatural powers, they've got cunning and ruthlessness and the mundane power to make up for it.

And yeah, Ruger's got it for conflict with the Awakened,.

[Ruger]

In the worst case, you would just have to pull a "Tucker's Kabolds". An exploding water heater is still an exploding water heater, but normal people can explode water heaters just fine if they have a bit of explosives. If they use PC tactics but NPC numbers, they could be a significant threat (especially if you are willing to buff them to PC-like competence).

So here are the major problems with hunting Mages (from both a Hunter PC/NPC perspective)
1. Quiescence, Sleepers forget seeing magic and have to make breaking points. They still realize what is going on when it happens, but putting memories of it back together sucks.
Solution: Have some sleepwalkers, who don't forget things, lead any Sleepers. T3 hunters with endowments tend to be Sleepwalkers, so you could plausibly send whole squads if you wanted, though sending sleepwalkers to add a slight risk of Paradox helps.

2. Mages are tough and versatile.
Solution: Well there isn't a great one that keeps it fun :V. Make the Hunters competent and well-equipped. Give them good tactics. Do what PCs would try to do. Ambushes, sniping, attacking friends and loved ones, attacking them when they are vulnerable, laying traps and explosives, the works. Outnumber the PCs by a good extent. Exhaust them with continued attacks. Make them feel like an endless wave. If your mages can beat the enemy 5-1 without breaking a sweat, send 7-1 hunters. If they can beat 7-1, send 10-1. NPCs have the advantage that random mook's deaths don't mean much, while one PC death is significant. Send anti-mage Endowments after them, making up new ones if you want. Try not to overdo it to the point the Mages die in a single turn.

We could run some white/grey room fights if you want to see how it would work in action, or just for fun :P.

It should be noted that you can still tell a story even with under-powered antagonist, though it would probably be a different type of story than usual

[Primordial newcomer]

I think I get what you mean arcane. They are like the Barret group with vampires. They may not be a threat that mages actually feel threatened by, but that same arrogance leads to them becoming a nuisance (a dangerous one at that)

Michael I meant they don't make mages see them as a dangerous threat

[Michael]

Ok. So the general consensus is they just aren't practical as a "crap we need to get rid of these guys" conflict

Sorry, but what does that mean?

[ArcaneArts]

Ok. So the general consensus is they just aren't practical as a "crap we need to get rid of these guys" conflict

If you're talking from a primary antagonist point of view, definitely. From a secondary antagonist point of view?

SLeepers can be definite Pains in the Ass once they realize direct conflict isn't going to go anywhere, and even though indirect conflict is still a Mage's territory, an exploding water heater is still an exploding water heater. That said, they definitely form the sense of "Well now what?" because mages can easily deal with them, but how they do so reflects on them as people. Well-prepared mages won't really have a problem, but their pricking can raise questions, and even cause some damage if you don't do something, which leads to the Ethical Questions

Sleepwalkers can be more equipped, but often times unless they're specialists with their supernatural powers, it's like bringing a pistol to a gatling gun fight. Still, some oomphs and clever decisions can make increase the probability of being a thing you have to address, even if they aren't the Biggest Deal. Hell, if you rule that groups like the Knights of Saint George's ability do basically affect the Awakened, they can even be a very significant thorn.

But you'll never make them a big ass deal on threat alone, and they are most effecacious if they are affecting the edges of a conflict rather than being the main thing. Both Sleepers and SLeepwalkers, even the really equipped ones, just aren't prepared for the gnostically rich as anything more than jackals to others efforts.

So, less Scooby Gang in your face, more you're worn out, expended, and done after a fight with the Tremere-and that's when the Scooby Gang decide to drop a bowling ball on your head.

[Primordial newcomer]

Ok. So the general consensus is they just aren't practical as a "crap we need to get rid of these guys" conflict

[Ruger]

Can hunters make good antagonist for mage players? Pretty sure Mages are way more powerful in the game rules for awakening, and don't even think the witch focused conspiracies could be consistently good antagonists. This is especially considering a writer saying the witches you fight are mostly hedge witches

Sure, if you want them too. The major annoyance is the memory thing, so setting up squads with a sleepwalker directing a group of sleepers would theoretically be effective. If you are willing to give them cheap tactics, they could be pretty dangerous. Especially if you use the groups that have abilities that counter magic.

I'd talk more but am kinda out of time :V.