Angels and Mind Magic

[ArcaneArts]

Unless you're running a Mage-centric game and don't consider the GM to be anything too special.

This sounds like a great way to have your ass kicked by the fucking GM and the rest of the play group. I'd kick you the fuck out as a player.

What's the fucking point of participating in a communal storytelling game if you're just going to be an ass about it?

What a shitty attitude.

[WHW]

This sounds like a great way to have your ass kicked by the fucking GM and the rest of the play group. I'd kick you the fuck out as a player.

What's the fucking point of participating in a communal storytelling game if you're just going to be an ass about it?

What a shitty attitude.

Uh, he is talking about GM as in God Machine, not Game Master. There is nothing "ass" or "shitty attitude" about saying that for purpose of Mage-centric game, you don't consider GodMachine to be anything special.

[Charlaquin]

This sounds like a great way to have your ass kicked by the fucking GM and the rest of the play group. I'd kick you the fuck out as a player.

What's the fucking point of participating in a communal storytelling game if you're just going to be an ass about it?

What a shitty attitude.

Woah Arc, that was uncalled for.

[Satchel]

Uh, he is talking about GM as in God Machine, not Game Master. There is nothing "ass" or "shitty attitude" about saying that for purpose of Mage-centric game, you don't consider GodMachine to be anything special.

There kinda is, given that even outside the context of Demon the God-Machine is a massive occult conspiracy-engine strung through the material world like so much mechanistic cancer-tissue.

If you don't want to use a godlike being as a godlike being, you're replicating the infamous "I summon Luna to proclaim my superiority to the werewolves!" behavior that's poisoned much of this gameline's perception in the wider fandom of the franchise if you include it anyway and then extend none of the expected anti-tampering protections to beings that are as near to a direct extension of said godlike entity's will and try to present this as a worthwhile line of discussion in a question about how a scenario could be expected to resolve based on the established setting.

If you show up just to crow about how In-my-game-we-ignore-basic-setting-conceits, that is not a good attitude to bring to the table in any sense.

[Johnny Awesome]

Uh, he is talking about GM as in God Machine, not Game Master. There is nothing "ass" or "shitty attitude" about saying that for purpose of Mage-centric game, you don't consider GodMachine to be anything special.

Thanks WHW. Not sure why a few people got so hostile. I feel that the devs are always tiptoeing around the beloved God Machine too much since the 2.0 reboot. I think it's perfectly valid to bring this up in a thread about Mind and Angels.

I just think it's silly that you can use Mind of Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings etc..., but for some reason Angels are untouchable. I thought I would share this so that new Mage STs realized that I support their anti-GM rebellion.

I feel it's perfectly acceptable and I encourage STs to make their Mage games Mage-centric.

[21C Hermit]

Thanks WHW. Not sure why a few people got so hostile. I feel that the devs are always tiptoeing around the beloved God Machine too much since the 2.0 reboot. I think it's perfectly valid to bring this up in a thread about Mind and Angels.

I just think it's silly that you can use Mind of Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings etc..., but for some reason Angels are untouchable. I thought I would share this so that new Mage STs realized that I support their anti-GM rebellion.

The equivalent of using Mind on angels is not using Mind on werewolves or changelings. It's the equivalent of using Spirit to enslave choirs of Lunes, or using Fate to haggle a deal from a Gentry. This is why they're "untouchable", even before accounting for developer favoritism that we have no evidence of existing, other than complaints about "Why not lemme do this cool thing I thought of?"

I feel it's perfectly acceptable and I encourage STs to make their Mage games Mage-centric.

That we all agree with, but there's a difference between having individual plays and tables being Mage-centric in the sense of giving mages advantageous ruling in the edge cases of crossover, and making entire settings of other games a mere add-on to another game.

[Johnny Awesome]

Are Angels as powerful as the Gentry? If so, then I stand corrected.

[Tessie]

No, but the God-Machine is (and arguably stronger but in ways that aren't quite comparable) and trying to reprogram an angel will force you into a Clash of Wills with the God-Machine directly instead of just the angel.

[Satchel]

Are Angels as powerful as the Gentry? If so, then I stand corrected.

The Mission programmed into an angel by the Machine is so defining to its nature that betraying it causes the angel to briefly cease to exist before it hard-reboots itself into a different metaphysical state. For obvious reasons, this is generally only manageable from the inside by an angel making a decision of its own accord based on faulty information, the unexpected variables of foreign supernatural contamination, or the development of an (at the time) stronger principle or attachment than God gave it to its Mission.

An angel treats the material world as its home dimension for the purposes of determining where it goes in the rare case that it runs out of Essence and hibernates, has a baseline Manifestation Condition that can be created by any other angel of sufficient power, adds dice or subtracts Essence costs from its Numina in the presence of that Condition, often has the Manifestation that allows it to return to that Condition unless it is the weakest sort of angel that exists, and may well possess the ability to assume an inviolate pretense of human (or animal, object, or building) form and immunity to Essence bleed as an innate gift from its master that takes no resources out of its basic ephemeral loadout.

An angel whose mission is critically endangered may resort to the markedly less subtle modifications it may apply to its powers, of which it always possesses at least one. These adjustments include: making the success of supernatural powers that would affect the angel contingent on a fuel surcharge; substantial global dice-adders and universal penalty-appliers; and just plain "spend Essence to reduce your target's resistance to your powers" effects. The vast majority of these modifiers have more than one effect — an angel with the Space Incept can effectively declare its powers to manifest from anywhere within its line of sight, while one with the Time Incept can essentially turn any of its powers into hung spells; Economy straight-up lets angels recycle Aether back into Essence as long as a demon isn't holding it.

An angel can be refueled by the simple act of burning valuables in its name. An angel can be refueled by the simple act of ritual murder. An angel is a process of the Great Wheel That Turns The World, and as long as it adheres to that niche like it's made to do, its purpose is inviolate.

This is the sort of thing you come to expect when dealing with beings that are empowered by physics — try as you might, you're not going to roll more successes than God when it comes to determining intent.

[lnodiv]

You know how the book explicitly states that you can never win a Clash of Wills against an Archmage?
The G-M exists in the same cosmological tier they do, at minimum.

[Second Chances]

You know how the book explicitly states that you can never win a Clash of Wills against an Archmage?
The G-M exists in the same cosmological tier they do, at minimum.

As an aside, I love the hilariously twisted idea of the God-Machine being an entity that protects both the Angels and the Unchained in the Ascention War. There's the possibility that Lucifer is another such being, but with very different motives. Very much headcanon from my own ideas about the God-Machine, but I think that's a good example of a reason not to just override the other gamelines in a Mage campaign. A more complicated cosmology makes for more mysteries for Mages to solve.

[WaywardPaladin]

I think that just leaves open the interesting trick of getting the Angel to do what you want without directly conflicting with its Mission. You're a Mind mage, be the scalpel, not the hammer.

[ElvesofZion]

I just think it's silly that you can use Mind of Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings etc..., but for some reason Angels are untouchable.

See, the problem with this list is that you CAN use Mind to mess with Demons just fine. That is the equivlency you are looking for, not Angels.

And as others have said, Mind works on Angels, as long as it doesn't go against their Mission.

[Rose Bailey]

You can divert an angel with mind control, but you can't get it to actually abandon or defy its mission. If you want an angel to go off-mission, your best bet is to try convincing it....

[bonerstorm]

In general, I *like* the idea of angels + the GM being almost completely unknown by mages. In my game (and it looks like in RAW), no major templates have abilities that allow them to see Angels in Twilight. IIRC the ONLY way is with that one Wolf-Blooded trait that allows you to see EVERYTHING in Twilight. Explains why few are aware of the GM or think it's a big deal. "The God-Machine? Is that some sort of minor Paternoster ochema?"

Ephemeral beings Withstand with Rank.

I don't want to throw the thread way off course but...

So are people seriously saying that you can bind Gaia with a Potency 11 spell? Kind of strains credulity.


My houserule is that Supernatural Tolerances are independent Withstand traits (and, as per multiple withstand rules, use the highest & +1 for each additional trait). So you've got a mage with Resistance trait 3, Gnosis 2 and Signs & Wards Potency 4... they Withstand at 4 + 1 + 1 = 6.