Truth in Mage and D&D Planes

[wyrdhamster]

Inside Wisdom Issues discussion came interesting subtopic about how Mage Supernal and Abyss relate to D&D Great Wheel cosmology. Here is sum up of it.

(Mage) Abyss is not 'evil'. It's Chaos. Primordial Chaos. And like in D&D or Warhammer - from this Chaos comes Order. Supernal ( in form of Arcana ) is all about ( secret ) Order to universe. There are hierarchies of power ( Gnosis ), there are levels of initiation (Arcana). Heck, even Supernal World could be said to work as 'putting in to boxes' most chaotic thing like 'magic based on all possible Symbols'. Like in Left Hand Path book chapter on Scelesti - For Fallen World to exist in semi-constant manner ( or exist in any meaningful way ) Order needed to win over Chaos. But just like Law gods of Warhammer universe are only (most powerful ) faction in all Chaos gods, so can be said Supernal is most 'logical' or 'ordered' parts of Abyss.

To continue this line of thought... Were you all aware that in D&D, all of creation may have sprang from the Chaotic Evil realm of the Abyss as well? And that doesn't stop the Abyss in that game from being tied to evil actions and destruction in order to drag creation back into the chaos of the bottomless Abyss?

I mean, yeah, there's no "Evil" label in the CofD, but other than that, there's actually a wealth of things that the two have in common if you look beyond just the evil-for-evil-sake's cartoonish portrayal that sometimes shows up. Its amazing how much D&D!Abyss and CofD!Abyss have in common. Hmm.... would that make the Exarchs the equivalent to the Archdevils? They're both divine embodiments of tyranny... I'll have to think more on that one later.

And Mount Celestia has multiple layers, where how enlightened you are determines on which layer you stand. Hmm... Where have I red about something like this before?

Also, Abyss is probably more like D&D Far Realms. Demons seem to be more like CofD Akathartoi.

Those would be the Devils, given their approach (trying to corrupt through contracts and subtle influence).

D&D demons with their rampant and wanton destruction could definitely fit other Lower Depths realms

The original D&D Abyss included all the abomination overlords, including mindflayer and abolith gods. The far realm eventually co-opted that, but at the heart, there are still demon lords based on the same things as the Far Realm.

For those that do not know D&D, here is simple drawings of it cosmology.



In a nutshell, universe in D&D is divided on Inner ( Elemental ) and Outer ( Philosophical ) Planes – i.e. various ‘Realms’ of Mage gameline. Those Outer Planes are looking very much as more basic Supernal Realms. One of it is Abyss – bottomless Plane of Chaotic Evil – that in above discussion was equated to Mage’s Void. In lore of D&D all Outer Planes are coming from it’s Abyss, and the same can be said in Mage.

Gist here is that those mapped Outer Planes are to be ‘most common’ to characters in D&D – lore says there are countless other, just outside perception. In the same way, Supernal Realms of Paths in Mage are those where Watchtowers were erected being ‘most close’ to the center of Mage ‘Great Wheel’. What’s even more interesting – interpreting as everything coming from Mage Void/Abyss ( like Abyss of D&D ) would mean that all Awakened, in reality, are Scelesti, just those from Paths are more ‘ordered’.

[21C Hermit]

Considering the Abyss amongst the various otherworlds is what mages used to do, right?

Still, I'm not so sure about the Outer Planes being equal to the Supernal Realms themselves, since you can still physically visit the former with a little aid from planar travel magic, while the latter can only be 'visited' by transfiguring yourself into an abstract concept. Maybe particularly focused Emanations?

Or maybe, this is all how it used to work in the Time Before, before the Abyss-That-Is-Not-The-Abyss rose up to crash the world.

[CatDoom]

I feel like describing the abyss as representing "chaos" and the Supernal as representing "order" is at all accurate. The symbols of disorder, dissolution, anarchy, formlessness... all the things we associate with the word "chaos" exist within the Supernal Realms. The Abyss consists of things that that do not exist yet hunger for existence; lies that hunger to make themselves true. While Abyssal Incursions manifest themselves through more or less familiar things that make up the world and reflect the truths of the Supernal, their core nature is fundamentally outside of reality as we know it. Predatory histories that seek to consume the timeline we know, sentient diseases that utterly obliterate the ability to communicate and understand communication, irrefutable proofs that undermine even the most basic principals of physics - the abyss represents not primordial chaos, but the antithesis of truth, understanding, and *being* itself.

Admittedly, it's a tricky distinction to make, but I think it's a crucial one. To suggest that the cosmos, or just the Supernal, is in some way part of the Abyss is, I think, to fundamentally misunderstand what the abyss is. Indeed, to a certain extent the only consistent definition of the Abyss is "that which is no part of the worlds we know."

As for the Abyss in D&D... well, the forces of evil and chaos like to make all sorts of claims about the nature of the universe, but those same beings are the very definition of an unreliable source. There are alternative stories which assert that the universe began as place of perfect order, and perhaps even perfect goodness, but that part of it have become corrupt and degenerated over time. Why should we favor the word of demons over... well... literally anyone else in the Planes?

[Hardwire99]

I was looking at the similarities the other day as well and their are alot. D&D's alignment system aside the Outer Planes all had values that governed how magic worked to fit the magical outlook of the plane. And if nothing else use the manes and through the rest out the window.

[Charlaquin]

If you incorporate 4e cosmology and/or the parts of it 5e stole and adoped into its revised version of Great Wheel, you've also got the Shadowfell and the Feywild, which kinda vaguely resemble the Shadow and the Hedge/Faerie.

[Hardwire99]

I agree, Like was mentioned there are alot of similarities. Yes D&D calls them planes of existence, Mage calls them realms.

[wyrdhamster]

While Abyssal Incursions manifest themselves through more or less familiar things that make up the world and reflect the truths of the Supernal, their core nature is fundamentally outside of reality as we know it. Predatory histories that seek to consume the timeline we know, sentient diseases that utterly obliterate the ability to communicate and understand communication, irrefutable proofs that undermine even the most basic principals of physics - the abyss represents not primordial chaos, but the antithesis of truth, understanding, and *being* itself.

Admittedly, it's a tricky distinction to make, but I think it's a crucial one. To suggest that the cosmos, or just the Supernal, is in some way part of the Abyss is, I think, to fundamentally misunderstand what the abyss is. Indeed, to a certain extent the only consistent definition of the Abyss is "that which is no part of the worlds we know."

I do not point that particular Abyssal Beings are only representations of Chaos or that Supernal do not have Symbols of anarchy and a like. I point that Abyss is 'great sea of everything', from that other things comes. It's corpse of Tiamat from that Marduk created our one world. It's Ginnungagap and giant Yamir that created world for the Norse. Each Abyssal being is discreet entity that want to 'live' in Fallen World - and each Annanuki is whole world that want to overwritten our Fallen World to become one 'being', in contrast to each other of it's siblings.

Void/Abyss in Mage is not (simply) 'Chaotic Evil' - it's just first ( and probably last ) point in universe creation. Abyss in Mage has EVERYTHING in it - just more stable parts of reality we call Fallen World, and they fight ( in Abyss ) over what is 'stable' now.

[21C Hermit]

I still wouldn't say that the Abyss is the Primordial, but rather that it is the Outside. The Primordial, like you point out, exist at the Alpha & Omega of reality, making it conceptually closest to the stillborn gods and corpses of world-progenitors that lie Outside reality. Therefore, the anti-beings of the Abyss find it the easiest to piggyback on the resonances of those belonging to the Primordial - hence all those chaotic, evil, destructive and perverted phenomena.

Which is why I think Mage Abyss corresponds to the Far Planes.

Consequently, I think the closest thing DnD Abyss corresponds to in CofD is the Primordial Dream. Greed, tyranny, pain, punishment, and despair as a fundamental part of the universe? Sounds a lot like how the evil Outer Planes are still a part of reality, and how Evil is a cosmic force in DnD.

[wyrdhamster]

I still wouldn't say that the Abyss is the Primordial, but rather that it is the Outside. The Primordial, like you point out, exist at the Alpha & Omega of reality, making it conceptually closest to the stillborn gods and corpses of world-progenitors that lie Outside reality. Therefore, the anti-beings of the Abyss find it the easiest to piggyback on the resonances of those belonging to the Primordial - hence all those chaotic, evil, destructive and perverted phenomena.

If your Outside is still about stillborn gods and corpses of world-progenitors, then you say the same as I think Primodrial in this sense. I.E. 'Place where universe as we know it started - and things that 'did not catch' with those that made Fallen World.'

Which is why I think Mage Abyss corresponds to the Far Planes.

If you mean that D&D Great Wheal is coming from Far Planes, and Far is 'all around' the Wheel, then we agree.

[wyrdhamster]

Now looking over forum, I think I made the same points on Mage Abyss few months before. We have proofs that Supernal is evolving with humanity - that lead that nowadays Supernal was Not-Supernal before humans. And Not-Supernal is definition of Abyss, so we have proof that 'First Atlantis' changed portions of Abyss in to stable and evolving Supernal Realms by seeding Watchtowers - and creating Paths by this!

[Charlaquin]

No, the Far Realm is a place completely outside of the Great Wheel - essentially a completely different cosmos that bumped into the Great Wheel and parts of its reality began to bleed into the reality of the Great Wheel. Creatures from the Far Realm are completely alien to all of the Planes, and inherently destructive to them, because they are native to a different reality that is incompatible with the reality of the Great Wheel.

I agree with 21C Hermit, the Far Realm is a much closer anologue for Mage's Abyss than the D&D Abyss is. Mage's Abyss isn't a place of primordial chaos from which the universe as we know it immerged, it is a separate unreality from which impossible things bleed into our own reality, which is inherently destructive to our own reality because they are incompatible with it.

[Michael]

Mage's Abyss isn't a place of primordial chaos from which the universe as we know it immerged,

The Scelesti section of Left-Hand Path suggests exactly that. That doesn't make it right, but it's certainly a valid option.

[Charlaquin]

The Scelesti section of Left-Hand Path suggests exactly that. That doesn't make it right, but it's certainly a valid option.

Ah ok, I haven't read that. Still, that's not how it's typically presented.

[Elfive]

The abyss is everything that doesn't exist. The universe didn't actually emerge from the abyss, so the abyss is the thing it emerged from.

If the universe had emerged from the abyss, then it wouldn't have. Which it didn't. So it did.

I've gone cross-eyed.

[HardcoreHannes]

Remembers me of that nice logic Problem:
No cat has two tails.
One cat has one more tail than no cat.
Consequently every cat has three tails.