Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

[Cauthon]

Rather that needing a -2 for Control Instincts, you can use the pseudo-factor dice from Legacy rules.

You mean "When required, the Attainment is also considered to have acquired additional spell factors that would incur a penalty (if cast as a spell) up to the Attainment’s lowest prerequisite Arcanum."? It already has that, it's why the Potency is 3. Upping it to Advanced Potency just makes it able to affect everyone with less than Composure 5

Or did you mean using the "measure successes" bit? I guess if you stretched the definition, it could mean that Masters got Exceptional Successes by default, but thats... not something I'd be comfortable with allowing

For the last two Attainments, the Life one could copy the Prince's body into someone else, including neural structure. So they have all their memories they had at the time of casting.

Then Prime could use Forge Purpose to override their Obsessions to something the mage wants. This way you have multiple instances of the Prince, with different Paths and Aspirations, but with consistent enough memories and all working on different projects (or the same one) they are Obsessed with. Everyone will be so busy trying to figure out the truth that they will overlook the thespian.

Hmmm... so, I have two concerns with that.

First, I don't feel like that's on-theme with the Princes. They want to assume other people's lives, not necessarily draw attention to their own. Having them burn down their private lives by spawning decoys seems like an odd capstone.

The other problem is Forge Purpose's spell factors. A Master-practice spell only gets one Reach, which for Forge Purpose would have to go into Advanced Duration. The problem is that it would also need sufficient Potency to overcome most people's Withstand, and without Advanced Potency it only has Potency of 3. You also need to be touching the target for an entire scene, which is manageable if you've knocked them out but still inconvenient.

Maybe a Prime Unmaking or Unraveling spell that makes everyone think the Prince's true identity is "untrue"? So everyone dismisses the identity as being a fanciful urban legend, or a conspiracy theory? Pattern it off of Unnaming from SoS, put the Reach into Advanced Duration, and possibly Advanced Potency depending on how you spoof it. Have it activate whenever using the third (and possibly the Life half of the fifth) Attainment.

[Satchel]

Upping it to Advanced Potency just makes it able to affect everyone with less than Composure 5

That's not what Advanced Potency does and Advanced Potency is kind of pointless for Legacy Attainments due to the way they work.

[Cauthon]

That's not what Advanced Potency does and Advanced Potency is kind of pointless for Legacy Attainments due to the way they work.

I was convinced Advanced Potency gave a -2 to the target's Withstand for some reason. Rereading core, I am indeed wrong.

That being said, I stand by my assertation that Forge Purpose doesn't make for a good Attainment for the Princes.

[lbeaumanior]

Banishing the Wayward Dream

Those who discover the similarities between initiation into the Continuity and possession by ephemeral entities will quickly conclude that an exorcism is in need. The conclusion is correct, but the first solution that will come into most mages' minds will be not; the Dreamtime entity is completely immune to being driven out by spells of the Mind, Spirit, or Death Arcana. Technically the spells do work, but triggers a Clash of Wills upon which the entity always wins.

When direct methods prove useless, the Awakened will get creative. A careful and observant mage who stalks the Continuity's recruits and early initiates may realize their indoctrination involves scrubbing them of negative emotions; specifically those that pertain to isolation and mortality, to loss and confusion. Instill those emotions in the Dreamcrafter and the entity will retreat, freeing the initiate's mind and soul. Magic is useful in this endeavor, and mandatory for treating Dreamcrafters who have achieved the third Attainment and beyond, who at that point cannot natually feel such emotions.

Another way to dispel the Wayward Dream is via abjuration; not the esoteric magic of the Supernal, but the kind that mortal occultists employ. Follow the rules for Abjuration as per Chronicles of Darkness, but each successful abjuration removes not all Conditions but only the most progressed one, with "most progressed" defined as what the Dreamcrafter's highest-rank Attainment imposes. When an Attainment's associated Condition is removed, so is the Attainment; removing all Attainments this way is how the Legacy is banished. Mages substitute Wisdom for Integrity when calculating dice modifiers, and can invoke their Vice or Virtue as desired. An abjurist can, however, invoke the Dreamcrafter's Vice or Virtues instead of their own; this always adds a +2 to abjuration, as it helps awaken the Dreamcrafter's own ego. Lastly, because Abjuration is non-Supernal, theoretically any Sleeper, Sleepwalker, or other supernatural entities can banish the Morphean Continuity this way. They must however spend a Willpower point per abjuration roll to do so.

A third method exists, one that need not end in conflict with the Dreamtime entity and thus only confirm its desperate need to expand and survive. Through either happenstance or purposefully tracking down a Dreamcrafter's Astral path, mages may locate the sympathetic osmosis that links the Dreamtime entity and all its cells. Follow the traces to the corners of the Anima Mundi, and mages will meet the hulking mass of the Wayward Dream itself. Then they will discover it is no mere Goetia; the entity is a greater Bound, licking its wounds in the deepest reaches of the Astral instead of Ruins. Unlike its kin, this Bound sates its hunger for Mana through the Legacy's bonds, not unlike what the totem spirits of werewolves' lodges experience. This makes the entity no less dangerous, since it currently has the mentality of a wounded and cornered animal. Especially in danger are mages bearing a Paradox Condition, for the Bound will recognize the resonance between them and what drove it out of its home in the first place, and certainly attack. Mages can, however, with both empathy and guile, convince the entity of its current safety; that it need not seize further Oneiric spaces to sustain itself, and could afford to retreat from them. Supplying the entity with Mana sweetens the deal, but what is guaranteed to seal it is the promise to help it return to its home. Mages who reach this point will gain powerful allies in the form of the Bound itself, and cabals of still existing Dreamcrafters left "just in case." However, it means they have just enlisted themselves willingly (and likely unknowingly) into the games of the Imperial Mysteries and its Seekers, and there's no turning back now.

When banishing, what happens with the attainments: Do you get refunded the XP? Do you keep them minus the Morphean related effects? Does Mind stop being a ruling Arcanum?

[Cauthon]

I believe it gets a refund. Mind does indeed stop being Ruling, which makes it a dangerous way to maximize XP usage - join them first, master Mind, then excise the infection and join a different Legacy.

[KaiserAfini]

I believe it gets a refund. Mind does indeed stop being Ruling, which makes it a dangerous way to maximize XP usage - join them first, master Mind, then excise the infection and join a different Legacy.

Which in itself could lead to all sorts of interesting places. Perhaps the mage feels incomplete now that they aren't part of a hive mind. Maybe they simply decide to become the central hub that unifies the psychic might, joining the Cloud Infinite or even developing a minflayer/elder brain inspired Legacy. They could even choose to take the fight to the Abyss, in order to prevent others from falling into this Legacy, choosing to wield unspeakable horrors to defeat it, eventually joining the Fangs of Mara.

[21C Hermit]

]
When banishing, what happens with the attainments: Do you get refunded the XP? Do you keep them minus the Morphean related effects? Does Mind stop being a ruling Arcanum?

Man, I need to trim that down some time later — I was feeling particularly word-y back then

The intention was as what Cauthon said, though the Exp min-maxing caught me off guard there. Huh, that’s certainly a perk.

[21C Hermit]

Which in itself could lead to all sorts of interesting places. Perhaps the mage feels incomplete now that they aren't part of a hive mind. Maybe they simply decide to become the central hub that unifies the psychic might, joining the Cloud Infinite or even developing a minflayer/elder brain inspired Legacy. They could even choose to take the fight to the Abyss, in order to prevent others from falling into this Legacy, choosing to wield unspeakable horrors to defeat it, eventually joining the Fangs of Mara.

Cloud Infinite would certainly be a scary prospect.

[Cauthon]

Man, I need to trim that down some time later — I was feeling particularly word-y back then

The intention was as what Cauthon said, though the Exp min-maxing caught me off guard there. Huh, that’s certainly a perk.

While I'd love to take credit for the Libertine Thyrsus' Mind-Viagra^(tm), I'm 99% certain I read that conclusion elsewhere. It's been so long that I can't remember where (here, maybe?), but it's been rattling around my skull and influencing me ever since.

Edit: Legicies: the Rehashed is where I got it from. So far from an official source.

[lbeaumanior]

Cauthon 21C Hermit KaiserAfini What do you think about refunding praxes for optional attainments?

What I mean is, it is clear you can refund an attainment if you have it as a praxis, but can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

I have heard "No, because it is a complementary effect of the attainment, singular, that you buy", or "Yes, you can refund it as it is a distinct attainment on itself"

[Cauthon]

I've always been iffy on whether you have to buy the optional Attainments or not. The fact that Mages can make novel Attainments makes me think that the optional track is bought separately, but the way it reads in RAW sounds like the optional Attainments come as part of the initial purchase package. It's worth noting, however, that the Perfected Adepts in Nameless and Accursed seem to set a precedent of "combined track" Legacies - no optional Attainments, and you need ranks in both Arcana to progress, but each Attainment is a combined effect. That would lean towards the part-and-parcel reading of the rules. Granted, there's only one published Attainment from them, but it's something.

I take the middle ground - If you spent XP to buy the optional Attainment, then the Praxis is refunded. If you get it as part of the package, then it isn't refunded. Not super helpful, I know, but it really depend on how your table interprets the rules.

[21C Hermit]

Cauthon 21C Hermit KaiserAfini What do you think about refunding praxes for optional attainments?

What I mean is, it is clear you can refund an attainment if you have it as a praxis, but can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

I have heard "No, because it is a complementary effect of the attainment, singular, that you buy", or "Yes, you can refund it as it is a distinct attainment on itself"

I would've answered as the latter a few months or so ago, but recently I'm leaning towards the former. Not a deep assessment, though, so just take this as a "general opinions" thing.

[Obsidian Pharaoh]

I've always been iffy on whether you have to buy the optional Attainments or not.

You don't. You automatically "learn" them if you have their Arcana prerequisites. The cost was already paid for the primary effect of the Attainment.

It's worth noting, however, that the Perfected Adepts in Nameless and Accursed seem to set a precedent of "combined track" Legacies - no optional Attainments, and you need ranks in both Arcana to progress, but each Attainment is a combined effect.

I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.

[lbeaumanior]

You don't. You automatically "learn" them if you have their Arcana prerequisites. The cost was already paid for the primary effect of the Attainment.

I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.

Hello Obsidian Pharaoh! Yours is one of the opinions I respect the most in these forums.

What do you think about my question, can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

[KaiserAfini]

Cauthon 21C Hermit KaiserAfini What do you think about http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1468420-2e-legacy-optional-attaiments"]refunding praxes for optional attainments[/URL]?

What I mean is, it is clear you can refund an attainment if you have it as a praxis, but can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

I have heard "No, because it is a complementary effect of the attainment, singular, that you buy", or "Yes, you can refund it as it is a distinct attainment on itself"

This depends on the ruling at each table. Personally I would say yes. If ruled optional Attainments are bought separately and you invested to learn it by yourself, then you should get a refund. Learning was the goal, it was achieved in a thematic way, so now you are not behind on experience because of it.

If you decided optional Attainment are included in the price of the main one and are unlocked if you have the Arcana, then I also think you should provide the option to give a refund. Since Attainments are reliable, there is heavy incentive to cast it normally unless they are trying to maximize the spell factors (since characters in game have no clue of the Beat economy). In that case, I would rather give the player the option to invest that point into another interesting thing, since it promotes variety.