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  • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    This depends on the ruling at each table. Personally I would say yes. If ruled optional Attainments are bought separately and you invested to learn it by yourself, then you should get a refund. Learning was the goal, it was achieved in a thematic way, so now you are not behind on experience because of it.
    But the text is clear that you dont buy them separately, if you have the Arcana at that value or higher, you get the optional effect. No extra effort.

    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    If you decided optional Attainment are included in the price of the main one and are unlocked if you have the Arcana, then I also think you should provide the option to give a refund. Since Attainments are reliable, there is heavy incentive to cast it normally unless they are trying to maximize the spell factors (since characters in game have no clue of the Beat economy). In that case, I would rather give the player the option to invest that point into another interesting thing, since it promotes variety.
    This is more aligned to what we see happening, thanks.

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    • Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
      Hello Obsidian Pharaoh! Yours is one of the opinions I respect the most in these forums.

      What do you think about my question, can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?
      Hey, lbeaumanior. I'm incredibly flattered and humbled you think that. Thank you very much.

      As for your question, I personally think it makes more sense that no refund would be due in that scenario since optional Attainments are technically free experience-wise. However, it's not exactly a game-breaking ruling to allow it so why not. You could maybe put a limit of one refund per Attainment, primary or optional, if you wanted some kind of constraint on it.

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      • Originally posted by Obsidian Pharaoh View Post
        I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.
        Forgetfulness and skimming, honestly. I'd looked at the Adepts recently, so they were the first thing I thought of. Claimed squick me out, so I kinda shunned the Keepers as soon as I read their Doom. Also the fact that the Legacies in Nameless and Accursed run the gamut of having listed Optional Attainments, having Two-Arcana Primary Attainments, and having both. Makes for murky recall. As you said though, Adepts and Keepers have two distinct spell effects within their listed Attainment, whereas, say, the Chronologues only have one Time effect with a neat Fate rider.

        I'd love to see a few more complete Legacies published. Makes it easier to guage what proper Attainments look like.
        Last edited by Cauthon; 12-03-2022, 04:43 AM.


        Monkish Asexual.

        I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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        • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
          Pure Sovereigns

          Optional (Mind ●●●●●)
          Having climbed so high, it can be shocking to look back and realize how simple everything looks from above. With a few friendly words and ingratiating charm, the Blueblood is able to worm their way into the confidence of new Allies and Contacts, or obtain some honorary Status in a given organization.
          [Spoiler]Social Networking
          Potency = Mind
          Duration = One Week (Reach to Advanced Duration)
          Casting Time = Scene
          Range = Self

          Ritually schmoozing with the relevant parties grants you access to Allies, Contacts, or Status. Make sure to get some face time with your new friends every week to keep yourself fresh in their minds.
          I was thinking about this Attainment during the maintenance. While it generally gels with the Silver Ladder's themes, it lacks somewhat in the Sovereign's pursuit of self-perfection. Originally I had an externally-applied Psychic Reprograming in this slot, but KaiserAfini made a good point that it didn't really fit the theme. Now, though, I feel like Social Networking steps a bit too much on the toes of Legacies like the Sisterhood of the Blessed.

          Would an internally-applied Psychic Reprograming be more appropriate? Rather than fabricating social networks out of thin air, they're instead surpressing or modifying parts of their personality that offend themselves.

          Social Networking could still be a variant Attainment, I'm just not sure which is more apppropriate for the Legacy's orthadoxy


          Monkish Asexual.

          I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

            I was thinking about this Attainment during the maintenance. While it generally gels with the Silver Ladder's themes, it lacks somewhat in the Sovereign's pursuit of self-perfection. Originally I had an externally-applied Psychic Reprograming in this slot, but KaiserAfini made a good point that it didn't really fit the theme. Now, though, I feel like Social Networking steps a bit too much on the toes of Legacies like the Sisterhood of the Blessed.

            Would an internally-applied Psychic Reprograming be more appropriate? Rather than fabricating social networks out of thin air, they're instead surpressing or modifying parts of their personality that offend themselves.

            Social Networking could still be a variant Attainment, I'm just not sure which is more apppropriate for the Legacy's orthadoxy
            I find it pretty appropriate, considering the Silver Ladders roots. I can’t exactly remember whom, but I vaguely remember one of the major Greek philosophers relevant to Mage defining moral correctness, and what it means to be the perfect person, as changing based on the situation. For instance, in one situation, the perfect person would chose pacifism over violence, while in almost exact similar situation they would choose the opposite if it meant the best outcome.That’s really hard for humans, since we both can’t see the future, and our nature can bias us in favor of certain options over others. I can see the Sovereigns, who are trying to become the perfect humans, doing something to correct their biases, or give themselves the correct biases.

            However, I wonder whether this overlaps too much with the internal only Emotional Urging, as both seem to fit in my mind. I don’t think there is a problem with overlapping attainments, but it might be something to consider.


            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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            • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
              However, I wonder whether this overlaps too much with the internal only Emotional Urging, as both seem to fit in my mind. I don’t think there is a problem with overlapping attainments, but it might be something to consider.
              Emotional Urging is more for managing your emotions, but Psychic Reprograming is -as you said- more about adapting your biases. EU would be for keeping your temper even in the midst of an argument, while PR would be temporarily making yourself hedonistic to better enjoy a party. Thanks for the feedback!


              Monkish Asexual.

              I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

              Comment

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