Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

[21C Hermit]

Plus, wasn't the original Dreamspeaker Initiation implied to be basically a psychotic break? Like, involuntarily experiencing a psychic event? I'll need to go re-read that...

I believe it also mentioned something like some Dreamspeakers being destined for it from the moment of Awakening, though I may be misremembering that. (Even if it did though, I’ll likely axe that one out…)

That being said, I'm not wedded to the idea. What would you recommend as an alternative? Peyote or other hallucinogens, ala the Mysterium rituals? Culture-appropriate vision-quest equivalents?

Astral journeys, yes. Then again, I prefer simpler Initiations.

[Cauthon]

The first sentence under Initiation is just getting the Astral Adept Merit, I assume?

And I like the idea of Goetic daikonomika running around in the Anima Mundi. It reinforces how Dreamspeakers can rise from any cultural background from whomever gets the ‘click’ right. Although, making it the ‘official’ initiation method seems a bit redundant? I mean, Legacy members should be able to initiate applicants without using a daikonomikon.

Yeah, the first sentence is just successful mastery of whatever technique they use to achieve Astral Adept

Sending the Initiate off on a vision quest to seek out their own patron totem seemed appropriate, especially since at later tiers they'll need to seek out other Dreamborn to court. Basically, my assumption is that the traditional way is to send them off to seek the Totem-Daikonomika that the teacher thinks most resonates with the student, but in extenuating circumstances they just go for the basic "study the master's soul or soulstone" route.

For example, an interesting story hook might be that someone or something has been hunting Totem-Daikonomika, either a specific attribute-slice or just any that can be found. A PC looking to initiate might find their nominal totem has been culled already, and their teacher might offer to initiate them in the "sloppy" method in exchange for a pledge to hunt down the Astral predator.

Plus, wasn't the original Dreamspeaker Initiation implied to be basically a psychotic break? Like, involuntarily experiencing a psychic event? I'll need to go re-read that...

That being said, I'm not wedded to the idea. What would you recommend as an alternative? Peyote or other hallucinogens, ala the Mysterium rituals? Culture-appropriate vision-quest equivalents?

[21C Hermit]

So, to consolidate rather than risk edit-wrath:

Prerequisites: Mind 2, Spirit 1, Astral Adept 3, Dream 1 Ritual: Scene-long Attainment casting achieved by manually meditating into the Astral
Initiation: Train with your mentor until able to enter the Astral without Hallow, Synesi, or Demesne. Then, journey into the Dreamtime on pilgrimage to the Astral Daikonomikon scribed there (Changing form? Multiple? I like the idea of constellations or landmarks, but multiple Goetia-Daikonomikon running around representing the various possible totem-entities would be neat)

The first sentence under Initiation is just getting the Astral Adept Merit, I assume?

And I like the idea of Goetic daikonomika running around in the Anima Mundi. It reinforces how Dreamspeakers can rise from any cultural background from whomever gets the ‘click’ right. Although, making it the ‘official’ initiation method seems a bit redundant? I mean, Legacy members should be able to initiate applicants without using a daikonomikon.

[Cauthon]

So, to consolidate rather than risk edit-wrath:

Dreamspeakers

Nicknames: Primals, Dreamwalkers, Cracked (Derogatory)

Organization: See Legacies: The Ancient for official fluff. A Legacy of convergent cultural traditions, with more loyalty to their "constituents" than to an overall Legacy or Order hierarchy.

Theory: The Dream is a truer form of reality, and one whose significance has been forgotten in favor of material gains.

Background: See Legacies: The Ancient for official fluff. Claim to be one of -if not the- oldest Legacy, and crops up in every culture. Spontaneous Initiation is not unheard of, resulting from mystery plays not dissimilar to psychotic breaks

Parentage: Thyrsus; Free Council
Prerequisites: Mind 2, Spirit 1, Astral Adept 3, Dream 1

Ritual: Scene-long Attainment casting achieved by successfully achieving a meditative state (i.e. the Meditation rules in Chronicles Of Darkness core)

Initiation: Train with your mentor until able to enter the Astral without Hallow, Synesi, or Demesne. Then, under cultural strictures appropriate to your mentor, pilgrimage into the deep Astral on a Dream-guided vision quest.

Additionally, scattered throughout the Anima Mundi are powerful Astral entities who can act as Daikonomikon for the Legacy. Seeking out these entities -much less convincing them to convey their imprinted wisdom- is a journey inof itself. Outsiders postulate that Master Primals create these entites as a kind of enduring record, to ensure that the Legacy cannot be permanently destroyed. Primals believe them to be Drramborn.

See What Must Be Seen
Initiation
Text Text Text I'M TRIPPING BALLS DUDE

*Non-spell effect* - Add dots of the Dream merit to the Dreamspeaker's Amnion

Exorcist’s Eye
Duration = Spirit (Reach to Advanced Duration)
Potency = 1, 2 at Spirit 2, 3 at Spirit 4
Withstand = Gauntlet Strength
Range = Self
Casting Time = Scene
NOTE: "See Goetia" added effect. Atypical: "See Through The Gauntlet" Reach effect, modified to be an overlay view of the opposite side of the Gauntlet. Withstand only affects this overlay.

Emissary From Afar
(Mind ●●) Dream 2
Text Text Text diplomatic immunity!

Mental Shield
Duration = Mind (Reach to Advanced Duration)
Potency = N/A (2, 3 at Mind 4)
Range = Self
Casting Time = Scene

(Spirit ●●)
Text text text Muting your resonance behind shields of will

Shadow Walk
Duration = Spirit (Reach to Advanced Duration) Potency = N/A (2, 3 at Spirit 4)
Range = Self
Casting Time = Scene
NOTE: Atypical - also affects Goetia. Entites directly interacted with become immunized for the rest of the Scene.

Call Upon The Dreamborn
(Mind ●●●) Dream 3, Meditative Mind 1
Text Text Text blessings of the Dreamborn

Augment Mind (Self, Advanced Duration)
Potency = Mind
Duration = One Day, One Week at Mind 4 (Reach to Advanced Duration)
Range = Self
Casting Time = Scene
NOTE: Atypical - Which Attribute is empowered requires the player to bargain with totem-entities resonant with that attribute. Strength with a bull or elephant, Wits with a raccoon, etc. Well- traveled and silver-tongued Dreamspeakers will have contracts with multiple totems. Contracted entities cause slight visual and behavioral changes in the Dreamspeaker's Onieros, and possibly their non-dreaming behavior.

(Spirit ●●●)
Text text text Dreamborn attuning you to the realm of Resonance

Reaching
Duration = Spirit (Reach to Advanced Duration)
Potency = 2, 3 at Spirit 4
Withstand = Gauntlet Strength
Range = Self
Casting Time = Scene
NOTE: Atypical - Only works so long as at least one totem-entity is contracted.

Dreamwalking
(Mind ●●●●) Dream 4, Meditative Mind 2
Text text text

One Mind, Two Thoughts
Duration = N/A (Two Reach to Lasting)
Potency = N/A (3)
Range = N/A (Self)
Casting Time = N/A (Two Reach to Lasting)
NOTE: "Instant Actions" and "Astral Physical Actions" Reach effects. Can now function simultaneously in the Astral and the waking world. Only allows one mental thread in each realm, but does not cause transitive stacking with normal castings of OMTT.

(Spirit ●●●●)
Text text text why would this be harder than being teo places at once, silly Mystagog?

World Walker
Potency = Spirit
Duration = N/A
Scale = Two Jumps on the Standard Scale
Withstand = Gauntlet Strength
Range = Self/Touch
Casting Time = Instant (Reach to Instant Casting)

Bridge Between Worlds
(Mind ●●●●●) Dream 5, Meditative Mind 4
Text Text Text summon allied totems into the material. I'm on a horse.

Goetic Summons
Duration = N/A ([Mind] Turns)
Potency = 3
Range = "Self"
Casting Time = Instant (Reach to Instant Casting)
NOTE: "Anima Mundi" Reach effect. Target must be willing, and can only summon known entities, and only from the Anima Mundi. Gains the Manifestation effect with Spirit 2

(Spirit ●●●●●)
Text text text spirits are just lesser Dreamborn

Spirit Summons
Duration = N/A ([Spirit] Turns) Potency = 3
Withstand = Gauntlet
Range = "Self"
Casting Time = Instant (Reach to Instant Casting)
NOTE: "Across the Gauntlet" Reach effect. Target must be willing, and can only summon known entities. Can summon entities into the Astral, treating the Gauntlet as being one step higher than the location of the Primal's physical body.

[21C Hermit]

I'll readily admit this being the weakest Attainment, but I wasn't really happy with any of the other spells I could convert. I'm not very good at making new spells whole-cloth, it's an unfortunate failing.

On the other hand, an always-on Twilight-sight is pretty useful. Gauntlet-sight is far from useless, but doesn't it also blind you to the material world as long as it's active?

As I said, you can probably keep it after fiddling with some conditions.

Expanding SW to cover Goetia too shouldnt be a big ask. Maybe limit it to only Goetia in the Astral, but the rare Goetia in Twilight is unaffected?

For the Dream thing... maybe add the Dreamspeaker's dots in the Dream merit to their defense against Goetia? Or affecting the Ecstatic Wind somehow, like adding to the Amnion or reducing their effective Gnosis for the purposes of being scoured?

Eh, I'll just let the sightseeing Goetia be affected too. It's unlikely to be off-balance precisely because such Goetia are rare.

Sssssorta. Dream Reaching, as I understand it, doesnt actually put you into the Astral, just to the "fringes". Combining it with Astral Adept doesn't precisely give the signature power of the Dream Speakers by RAW, but it felt close enough for me. Now they can control their mundane dreams, but more importantly they can toggle themselves between conciousness and Astral exploration at will.

After more thoughts, I don't think Dream Reaching fits these guys' concept in the first place. They hardly care about 'real' dreams. (Save for an oddball or two out there who mingles with fairies)

Going slightly out of order, because these two are related. I stuck the summoning on the end, because I forgot you don't need Advanced Duration if you aren't issuing orders.

Still, Goetic Summons for Dreamtime Entites into the material world is already over-reach, and I thought to mitigate that by requiring you to only call upon entities you've bargained with. Which also makes for a good reason for the Dream Speaker to be exploring the Astral in the first place - striking bargains with powerful entities.

Ephemeral summoning is tricky like that; it's hard to fit enough Reach to make it a practical Legacy Attainment.

A suggestion; while keeping your Fifth Attainment as-is is perfectly okay, how about introducing a sort of communal culture where multiple Dreamspeakers (and allied mages, if any) invest Soul Stones to collaboratively raise Demesnes over large swathes of Sanctums? Perfect for ephemeral summoning needs, with the occasional Supernal Summons too.

Aye. It's such an abnormal power that I've effectively split it into two Attainments, but both are so much higher than the 1e version. -_-

I like to think the "doesnt cause the normal stacking effect" is a nice compensation, but its probably too little.

My personal guideline is that it's okay to introduce "Wait, what?" abilities to Fourth and Fifth Attainments. In fact, in Mage high-rank Legacy Attainments are one of the few places such things can fit. Down to the Third Attainment, for certain 'villainous' Legacies, for whom we all expect a certain degree of danger and competency!

Hmm. Might work. Self-cast only, or can they affect other things? With Reaching being always on, either is useful. I'd limit it to touch-only, if it can affect other things as well.

Self/Touch range was my initial thought, with "only under consent" for affecting Goetia.

I'll also note that I'm trying to shift more into Optional Attainments that directly expand on the Primary Attainment's effects, like how the 11Q in the core book work. I'm editing my old Legacies to be less "two sets of powers" in that regard... at least I will once my thread finally gets unflagged...

Funny, since that's also my goal these days. But no way I'm editing this thread for that purpose - I'm not willing to see it condemned into limbo!

[Cauthon]

I'll also note that I'm trying to shift more into Optional Attainments that directly expand on the Primary Attainment's effects, like how the 11Q in the core book work. I'm editing my old Legacies to be less "two sets of powers" in that regard... at least I will once my thread finally gets unflagged...

[Cauthon]

I feel swapping out Occult for the Astral Adept Merit feels better. They're going to want it, and use it a lot; might as well make it a requirement.

Fair. I lumped Astral Adept in with the Disciple Attainment for reasons I'll talk about in that section, but it's far from necessary. Meditative Mind is also a good Merit to use for Prerequisites, actually.

I'm skeptical on using Exorcist's Eye for the First Attainment. A Dreamspeaker already has the Mind's Eye Attainment by virtue of initiation, and as a Thyrsus is expected to quickly acquire Spirit Eyes too, so I don't feel much use for it as an 'opener move' so to speak. It may be better as the Second Attainment, with Reach assigned to Instant casting and perceiving across the Gauntlet. Here, the Dreamspeaker quirk would allow the Attainment to peer into a Synese as recon. For crossover purposes, through a Primordial Pathway into a Lair too.

But then again, I recall some Legacy Attainments in Nameless and Accursed going over standard Reach under certain conditions, so this could somehow fit into the First Attainment...

I'll readily admit this being the weakest Attainment, but I wasn't really happy with any of the other spells I could convert. I'm not very good at making new spells whole-cloth, it's an unfortunate failing.

On the other hand, an always-on Twilight-sight is pretty useful. Gauntlet-sight is far from useless, but doesn't it also blind you to the material world as long as it's active?

The shield is okay, though I'd want to extend the optional Shadow Walk effect to Goetia and other thought-beings too. A part of me wants to tie this to the Dream Merit, but I have no clear ideas on that. Maybe the Primal can Dream up a prophecy about a hostile Goetic/psychic/mental attack to come, which gives bonuses to the shield.

Expanding SW to cover Goetia too shouldnt be a big ask. Maybe limit it to only Goetia in the Astral, but the rare Goetia in Twilight is unaffected?

For the Dream thing... maybe add the Dreamspeaker's dots in the Dream merit to their defense against Goetia? Or affecting the Ecstatic Wind somehow, like adding to the Amnion or reducing their effective Gnosis for the purposes of being scoured?

If I'm not mistaken, this lucid dreaming seems to overlap with the next Attainment (plus Astral Adept)?

Sssssorta. Dream Reaching, as I understand it, doesnt actually put you into the Astral, just to the "fringes". Combining it with Astral Adept doesn't precisely give the signature power of the Dream Speakers by RAW, but it felt close enough for me. Now they can control their mundane dreams, but more importantly they can toggle themselves between conciousness and Astral exploration at will.

We could instead place a minor summoning power here (since 3 dots in an Arcanum unlocks Targeted Summoning, I feel that any 'summoning' Legacy Attainments should start here). The Dreamspeakers' original 1e writeup has "Call Upon the Dreamborn" as its 2nd Attainment, so let's pull that over here. Which means making Augment Mind as the Attainment.

The 1e version mentions learning the Attainment from a Dreamborn, each Dreamborn presiding over one Attribute, and revisiting the Astral to negotiate with another Dreamborn to swap out the Attribute. That's a bit too fiddly, so let's just leave the chosen Attribute up to the character/player. Good roleplaying would have the mage evoking the Dreamborn anyway. (Or allow a Dreamborn's "blessing" to substitute for Reach for purposes of accessing multiple Attributes? Hmm...)

No idea about the Spirit option yet. 1e "Call Upon the Dreamborn" says we get Rouse Spirit, but 1e's Rouse Spirit is actually 2e's Birth Spirit in effect, so nope. Maybe a supercharged Coaxing the Spirits? Instant casting, Advanced Duration, Advanced Scale. Centered around the Dreamspeaker whenever he does the Attribute boost, and moves with him. Nice for building Resonance for Goetia and spirits alike (and giving a huge middle finger to local werewolves).

Sounds good, though I'm not sure why "can only summon known entity" condition is there.

I want to fit 1e's 3rd Attainment, "Dreamself" somewhere over there, but it's basically just Psychic Projection with the Spirit add-on, and Psychic Projection as-is feels a bit lackluster compared to the supercharged 1M2T above. Will have to ponder more. Maybe something like "become Dream Form in the material world or the Shadow".

Going slightly out of order, because these two are related. I stuck the summoning on the end, because I forgot you don't need Advanced Duration if you aren't issuing orders.

Still, Goetic Summons for Dreamtime Entites into the material world is already over-reach, and I thought to mitigate that by requiring you to only call upon entities you've bargained with. Which also makes for a good reason for the Dream Speaker to be exploring the Astral in the first place - striking bargains with powerful entities.

Yep, supercharged 1M2T goes here. Instant use, Advanced Duration, and 1 'physical' action in the Astral takes up all the 4 free Reach, plus a Dreamspeaker's unique oomph to have the two trains of thought in both the material world and the Astral. This is 1e Dreamspeakers' 1st Attainment, "Dreamwalking".

Aye. It's such an abnormal power that I've effectively split it into two Attainments, but both are so much higher than the 1e version. -_-

I like to think the "doesnt cause the normal stacking effect" is a nice compensation, but its probably too little.

For the Spirit optional effect, World Walker could work. This still wouldn't allow the Primal to physically walk into the Astral, but he can still hop over the Gauntlet to see what Astral influences are messing up with things or are being messed up

Hmm. Might work. Self-cast only, or can they affect other things? With Reaching being always on, either is useful. I'd limit it to touch-only, if it can affect other things as well.

[21C Hermit]

Arrgh, I need to jump-start this. But Mister Life says "lol nope", and the forum's recent quirk of posts and entire threads have been being thrown into limbo due to edits and links is not helping. Still, thanks for reminding me.

Comments and suggestions!

Giving the Dream Speakers a shot. How do these sound?

Prerequisites: Mind 2, Spirit 1, Occult 2, Dream 1
Ritual: Scene-long casting achieved by manually meditating into the Astral

I feel swapping out Occult for the Astral Adept Merit feels better. They're going to want it, and use it a lot; might as well make it a requirement.

1. Initiation
Exorcist’s Eye (Advanced Duration)

I'm skeptical on using Exorcist's Eye for the First Attainment. A Dreamspeaker already has the Mind's Eye Attainment by virtue of initiation, and as a Thyrsus is expected to quickly acquire Spirit Eyes too, so I don't feel much use for it as an 'opener move' so to speak. It may be better as the Second Attainment, with Reach assigned to Instant casting and perceiving across the Gauntlet. Here, the Dreamspeaker quirk would allow the Attainment to peer into a Synese as recon. For crossover purposes, through a Primordial Pathway into a Lair too.

But then again, I recall some Legacy Attainments in Nameless and Accursed going over standard Reach under certain conditions, so this could somehow fit into the First Attainment...

2. Mind 2, Dream 2
Mental Shield (Advanced Duration)
Shadow Walk (Advanced Duration) - Mental Shield is "muting" their Shadow presence. Entites they directly interact with become immunized for the rest of the Scene.

The shield is okay, though I'd want to extend the optional Shadow Walk effect to Goetia and other thought-beings too. A part of me wants to tie this to the Dream Merit, but I have no clear ideas on that. Maybe the Primal can Dream up a prophecy about a hostile Goetic/psychic/mental attack to come, which gives bonuses to the shield.

3. Mind 3, Astral Adept
Dream Reaching (Advanced Duration, "Lucid Dreaming") - additionally allows entering the Astral while awake, but can only focus on one at a time
Reaching (Advanced Duration)

If I'm not mistaken, this lucid dreaming seems to overlap with the next Attainment (plus Astral Adept)?

We could instead place a minor summoning power here (since 3 dots in an Arcanum unlocks Targeted Summoning, I feel that any 'summoning' Legacy Attainments should start here). The Dreamspeakers' original 1e writeup has "Call Upon the Dreamborn" as its 2nd Attainment, so let's pull that over here. Which means making Augment Mind as the Attainment.

The 1e version mentions learning the Attainment from a Dreamborn, each Dreamborn presiding over one Attribute, and revisiting the Astral to negotiate with another Dreamborn to swap out the Attribute. That's a bit too fiddly, so let's just leave the chosen Attribute up to the character/player. Good roleplaying would have the mage evoking the Dreamborn anyway. (Or allow a Dreamborn's "blessing" to substitute for Reach for purposes of accessing multiple Attributes? Hmm...)

No idea about the Spirit option yet. 1e "Call Upon the Dreamborn" says we get Rouse Spirit, but 1e's Rouse Spirit is actually 2e's Birth Spirit in effect, so nope. Maybe a supercharged Coaxing the Spirits? Instant casting, Advanced Duration, Advanced Scale. Centered around the Dreamspeaker whenever he does the Attribute boost, and moves with him. Nice for building Resonance for Goetia and spirits alike (and giving a huge middle finger to local werewolves).

4. Mind 4, Occult 3
One Mind, Two Thoughts (Advanced Duration, "Instant Actions" "Astral Physical Actions") - Can now function simultaneously in the Astral and the waking world. Only allows one mental thread in each realm, but does not cause transitive stacking with normal castings of OMTT.
Know Spirit (Instant Casting, Sensory Range, Advanced Scale, "Goetia") - Only works while One Mind Two Thoughts is active? Need something to tie it better to the Mind portion, or a replacement.

Yep, supercharged 1M2T goes here. Instant use, Advanced Duration, and 1 'physical' action in the Astral takes up all the 4 free Reach, plus a Dreamspeaker's unique oomph to have the two trains of thought in both the material world and the Astral. This is 1e Dreamspeakers' 1st Attainment, "Dreamwalking".

For the Spirit optional effect, World Walker could work. This still wouldn't allow the Primal to physically walk into the Astral, but he can still hop over the Gauntlet to see what Astral influences are messing up with things or are being messed up.

5. Mind 5, Occult 4, Dream 5
Goetic Summons (Advanced Duration, Instant Casting, "Summon From Dreamtime") - Target must be willing, and can only summon known entities, and only from the Anima Mundi. Gains the Manifestation effect with Spirit 2
Spirit Summons (Advanced Duration, Instant Casting, "Across the Gauntlet") - Target must be willing, and can only summon known entities.

Sounds good, though I'm not sure why "can only summon known entity" condition is there.

I want to fit 1e's 3rd Attainment, "Dreamself" somewhere over there, but it's basically just Psychic Projection with the Spirit add-on, and Psychic Projection as-is feels a bit lackluster compared to the supercharged 1M2T above. Will have to ponder more. Maybe something like "become Dream Form in the material world or the Shadow".

[Cauthon]

Giving the Dream Speakers a shot. How do these sound?

Prerequisites: Mind 2, Spirit 1, Occult 2, Dream 1
Ritual: Scene-long casting achieved by manually meditating into the Astral

1. Initiation
Exorcist’s Eye (Advanced Duration)

2. Mind 2, Dream 2
Mental Shield (Advanced Duration)
Shadow Walk (Advanced Duration) - Mental Shield is "muting" their Shadow presence. Entites they directly interact with become immunized for the rest of the Scene. Also affects Goetic entities.

3. Mind 3, Astral Adept
Dream Reaching (Advanced Duration, "Lucid Dreaming") - additionally allows entering the Astral while awake, but can only focus on one at a time
Reaching (Advanced Duration)

4. Mind 4, Occult 3
One Mind, Two Thoughts (Lasting, "Instant Actions" "Astral Physical Actions") - Can now function simultaneously in the Astral and the waking world. Only allows one mental thread in each realm, but does not cause transitive stacking with normal castings of OMTT.
Know Spirit (Instant Casting, Sensory Range, Advanced Scale, "Goetia") - Only works while One Mind Two Thoughts is active? Need something to tie it better to the Mind portion, or a replacement.

5. Mind 5, Occult 4, Dream 5
Goetic Summons (Advanced Duration, Instant Casting, "Summon From Dreamtime") - Target must be willing, and can only summon known entities, and only from the Anima Mundi. Gains the Manifestation effect with Spirit 2
Spirit Summons (Advanced Duration, Instant Casting, "Across the Gauntlet") - Target must be willing, and can only summon known entities.

[Cauthon]

However, I wonder whether this overlaps too much with the internal only Emotional Urging, as both seem to fit in my mind. I don’t think there is a problem with overlapping attainments, but it might be something to consider.

Emotional Urging is more for managing your emotions, but Psychic Reprograming is -as you said- more about adapting your biases. EU would be for keeping your temper even in the midst of an argument, while PR would be temporarily making yourself hedonistic to better enjoy a party. Thanks for the feedback!

[TempleBuilder]

I was thinking about this Attainment during the maintenance. While it generally gels with the Silver Ladder's themes, it lacks somewhat in the Sovereign's pursuit of self-perfection. Originally I had an externally-applied Psychic Reprograming in this slot, but KaiserAfini made a good point that it didn't really fit the theme. Now, though, I feel like Social Networking steps a bit too much on the toes of Legacies like the Sisterhood of the Blessed.

Would an internally-applied Psychic Reprograming be more appropriate? Rather than fabricating social networks out of thin air, they're instead surpressing or modifying parts of their personality that offend themselves.

Social Networking could still be a variant Attainment, I'm just not sure which is more apppropriate for the Legacy's orthadoxy

I find it pretty appropriate, considering the Silver Ladders roots. I can’t exactly remember whom, but I vaguely remember one of the major Greek philosophers relevant to Mage defining moral correctness, and what it means to be the perfect person, as changing based on the situation. For instance, in one situation, the perfect person would chose pacifism over violence, while in almost exact similar situation they would choose the opposite if it meant the best outcome.That’s really hard for humans, since we both can’t see the future, and our nature can bias us in favor of certain options over others. I can see the Sovereigns, who are trying to become the perfect humans, doing something to correct their biases, or give themselves the correct biases.

However, I wonder whether this overlaps too much with the internal only Emotional Urging, as both seem to fit in my mind. I don’t think there is a problem with overlapping attainments, but it might be something to consider.

[Cauthon]

Pure Sovereigns

Optional (Mind ●●●●●)
Having climbed so high, it can be shocking to look back and realize how simple everything looks from above. With a few friendly words and ingratiating charm, the Blueblood is able to worm their way into the confidence of new Allies and Contacts, or obtain some honorary Status in a given organization.
[Spoiler]Social Networking
Potency = Mind
Duration = One Week (Reach to Advanced Duration)
Casting Time = Scene
Range = Self

Ritually schmoozing with the relevant parties grants you access to Allies, Contacts, or Status. Make sure to get some face time with your new friends every week to keep yourself fresh in their minds.

I was thinking about this Attainment during the maintenance. While it generally gels with the Silver Ladder's themes, it lacks somewhat in the Sovereign's pursuit of self-perfection. Originally I had an externally-applied Psychic Reprograming in this slot, but KaiserAfini made a good point that it didn't really fit the theme. Now, though, I feel like Social Networking steps a bit too much on the toes of Legacies like the Sisterhood of the Blessed.

Would an internally-applied Psychic Reprograming be more appropriate? Rather than fabricating social networks out of thin air, they're instead surpressing or modifying parts of their personality that offend themselves.

Social Networking could still be a variant Attainment, I'm just not sure which is more apppropriate for the Legacy's orthadoxy

[Cauthon]

I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.

Forgetfulness and skimming, honestly. I'd looked at the Adepts recently, so they were the first thing I thought of. Claimed squick me out, so I kinda shunned the Keepers as soon as I read their Doom. Also the fact that the Legacies in Nameless and Accursed run the gamut of having listed Optional Attainments, having Two-Arcana Primary Attainments, and having both. Makes for murky recall. As you said though, Adepts and Keepers have two distinct spell effects within their listed Attainment, whereas, say, the Chronologues only have one Time effect with a neat Fate rider.

I'd love to see a few more complete Legacies published. Makes it easier to guage what proper Attainments look like.

[Obsidian Pharaoh]

Hello Obsidian Pharaoh! Yours is one of the opinions I respect the most in these forums.

What do you think about my question, can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

Hey, lbeaumanior. I'm incredibly flattered and humbled you think that. Thank you very much.

As for your question, I personally think it makes more sense that no refund would be due in that scenario since optional Attainments are technically free experience-wise. However, it's not exactly a game-breaking ruling to allow it so why not. You could maybe put a limit of one refund per Attainment, primary or optional, if you wanted some kind of constraint on it.

[lbeaumanior]

This depends on the ruling at each table. Personally I would say yes. If ruled optional Attainments are bought separately and you invested to learn it by yourself, then you should get a refund. Learning was the goal, it was achieved in a thematic way, so now you are not behind on experience because of it.

But the text is clear that you dont buy them separately, if you have the Arcana at that value or higher, you get the optional effect. No extra effort.

If you decided optional Attainment are included in the price of the main one and are unlocked if you have the Arcana, then I also think you should provide the option to give a refund. Since Attainments are reliable, there is heavy incentive to cast it normally unless they are trying to maximize the spell factors (since characters in game have no clue of the Beat economy). In that case, I would rather give the player the option to invest that point into another interesting thing, since it promotes variety.

This is more aligned to what we see happening, thanks.