[2ed] Legacy experiment: Infernal Ones

[Horodrigo]

Hi folks, I and a player are trying to develop a legacy for his Seer Mastigos, it uses some inspiration on the blue book Inferno, so it may have some themes that not everyone would like to read or discuss. But for those who feel confortable, I would like to hear some suggestions about this.

At the moment, we didn't develop past the 3rd attainment, cause he does not have Gnosis 6 ye

This legacy works on some Truths of the scenario:
1 - Demons from the Inferno are beings that aways have existed. Thus, they have real knowledge of the Time Before. But being masters at deception and utterly immune to most powers, they
are mischiveous lil' bastards.
2 - Demons can't break their word. But they can use loopholes as they see fit. In this particular case, the demon said that he would help the mage to see events of the Time Before.

Infernal Ones

Origins

Parentage: Mastigos, Seers of the Throne
Background: The history of Demons and Unholy creatures aways echoed throughout human history. While the study of Sleepers stops on phylosofy, teology and sometimes fiction, the Awakened have tools far more adequate to satisfy their curiosity. The Infernal Ones are the individuals that, using strange and long-forgotten rituals, made contact with beings of the Lower Depths know as Inferno.
Appearances: Knowing the past and the future is an important step before succeding in the present, and thus Sinners often have a broad wardrobe to fit the occasion.

Doctrine

Prerequisites: Spirit 2, Persuasion 2, Occult 2 and two dots in one of the following Skills; Subterfuge, Expression, Empathy, Politics, Socialize
Initiation: The Initiate must develop of discover a way to contact some Infernal entity, after that, he must gather with his mentor and summon the Infernal demon, if he succeed, his mentor will bargain with the demon to warp his soul, starting his way into the Legacy.
Organization: At the momment, the only Sinner is Gabriel, a Seer Mastigos.
Theory: There are beings who existed in the Time Before and still maintain the knowledge of everything who once was. By expading the influence of these beings it is possible to recreate the perfection of the Supernal Truth once again.

Magic

Ruling Arcanum: Spirit
Yantras: Act accondingly of one of the Seven Deadly Sins (+2); Speak on old Aramaic (+1); casting a spell against someone that is indulging a Vice (+1, +2 if the target is indulcing it's Vice because the mage influenced him)
Oblations: Lose yourself into the pleasures of the flesh; strike a captious deal; convincing someone of indulging your Vice; removing someones virginity

Attainments

First: Demon Eyes
Prerequisites: Initiation
The mage can use "Exorcist Eyes", but this will function with spirits and infernal entitys. It takes a scene to activate. The Reach is assigned to advanced duration and seeing the Shadows.
Optional: Space 2
The mage is now capable of detecting Irises with his P. Mage Sight.

Second: Feed with Sin
Prerequisites: Spirit 2, Persuasion 3
This emulates "Channel Essence". This essence will always be tainted with one of the 7 deadly sins. The Reach is assigned for immediate activation.
Optional: Space 2
The mage can use "Borrow Threads" to steal connections for himself in order to commit a Sin. He must interact with the target for one scene. The Reach is assigned for Advanced Duration.

Third: Infernal Lords
Prerequisites: Spirit 3, Occult 3 and two dots in a second Skill among the initiation Skill list
This act like a special "Spirit Summon". You can choose to summon one Avatar(rank 5 spirit) of these 9 beings every time you use this:
Carnala, Lady of Lust
Mammon, Creator of Greed
Maastrac, Master of Envy
Baalphebor, King of Gluttuny
Lamashtu, Khalifa of Pride
Beliar, Slave of Sloth
Asmodai, Queen of Wrath
Pseulak, Ministry of Betrayal
Thurifurge, Arquitect da Violence
The ritual takes one scene to be completed and the mage can negotiate infernal pacts with the entity. Feel free to use the rules from Inferno or Summoners. If using the Inferno rules, the mage is not affected by the page 94 flaw.
Optional: Space 3
This acts like a "Ban" spell. It affects an area of a rune specially designed for this, with a max area of 2m³. It does not permit the escape of Spiritual and Infernal Beings. The Duration is one Scene.

Fourth: Hell Relics
Prerequisites: Spirit 4
This act like "Craft Fetish". He needs to inscribe an Infernal Rune of the object he wants to be the Fetish. He can create Potency 3 Fetish with one month Duration or Enchant a object or place to hold corrupted Essence(as the 2nd attainment) with Indefinite Duration.
Optional: Space 4
Works like "Teleportation", only on himself and only to places where he can see. He can teleport between the Shadows and the Fallen Word if he is seeing them with some power(Like the 1st Attainment).


Fifth: Hell Mansion
Prerequisites: Spirit 5, Occult 5
This act like "Spirit Manse", with Potency of 5 and Indefinite Duration. The Manse has a Bane, any holy item placed in it's center collapses the place. The mage needs a week to prepare his Spirit Manse(at least 6 hours of work per day), but it's duration is Indefinite. Suffice to say that, after having warped your soul this far, your manse will be completely Hellish in nature, but you feel really confortable there.
Optional: Space 5
This replicate "Co-location". With Reach assigned to immediate activation, visible overlapping and to set a Key for the use of the overlap.

[21C Hermit]

Mastigos as parent Path can't fail for any demonological Legacy, but why Time though?

[Horodrigo]

He wants some complicated things.
1 - He wants a way to travel to the Time Before or at least see something from the Time Before.
2 - He wants to exist unchained from Time.

[Axelgear]

While I like both those motives and the idea of a kind of hardcore Infernalist Left-Handed Legacy, I would advise taking a different tack. These ideas are disparate enough that you could make two entirely disparate Legacies from them, and I'd honestly advise doing so.

My recommendations would be making either:

A. A Legacy themed around the idea that Inferno-style demons are remnants of the Time Before, and that the shattered era may be recreated by bringing back these unholy lords of nightmare and forging them into what they represent. Maybe include some unique effect or merit to represent the effects of this; the character conjuring and binding demons that slowly reshape the landscape into something that could theoretically resemble a particularly demonic version of a Ruin. Importantly, this should include magical effects - like Paradox reduction or warping spells (consider that Ruins cause Time magic to go haywire, then imagine that effect for any other arcanum), or powerful resonances for spells associated with a given demonic patron.

For this Legacy, I'd use the Spirit arcanum, with Space for secondary attainments. Give them attainments suited to summoning, binding, and corrupting spirits; manifesting through forcing these alterations on other spirits or outright conjuring these dark beings. This is the sort of Legacy that lets you do things that other Mages don't, rather than being really good at things other Mages are.

B. A Legacy themed around forcibly tearing open violent wounds into the world and bringing the Supernal City bleeding through. Drop the Inferno angle and make it Time-focused and keep Space as a secondary. This Legacy would be about alternate histories; alternate possibilities. It should probably still come across as Left-Handed as all hell, because the reality that is is the only one that the Supernal allows. Trying to conceive of ones absent Supernal symbols is opening doors to the Lower Depths or, worse, the Abyss. The character might even become a Scelesti in the process; making bargains with an acamoth to learn the Legacy, because the true Awakened City might not exist in the physical world anymore, but the idea of it must exist somewhere. If it can't exist in reality... That just leaves one place, doesn't it?

[Horodrigo]

A. A Legacy themed around the idea that Inferno-style demons are remnants of the Time Before, and that the shattered era may be recreated by bringing back these unholy lords of nightmare and forging them into what they represent. Maybe include some unique effect or merit to represent the effects of this; the character conjuring and binding demons that slowly reshape the landscape into something that could theoretically resemble a particularly demonic version of a Ruin. Importantly, this should include magical effects - like Paradox reduction or warping spells (consider that Ruins cause Time magic to go haywire, then imagine that effect for any other arcanum), or powerful resonances for spells associated with a given demonic patron.

OR

B. A Legacy themed around forcibly tearing open violent wounds into the world and bringing the Supernal City bleeding through. Drop the Inferno angle and make it Time-focused and keep Space as a secondary. This Legacy would be about alternate histories; alternate possibilities. It should probably still come across as Left-Handed as all hell, because the reality that is is the only one that the Supernal allows. Trying to conceive of ones absent Supernal symbols is opening doors to the Lower Depths or, worse, the Abyss. The character might even become a Scelesti in the process; making bargains with an acamoth to learn the Legacy, because the true Awakened City might not exist in the physical world anymore, but the idea of it must exist somewhere. If it can't exist in reality... That just leaves one place, doesn't it?

The player and I loved the options. But there are a couple things to consider.
First, we are trying to use the Inferno book as a baseline, so this information about Inferno vs Abyss is important:

Infernal demons are not of the Abyss.
On the rare occasions when Hell and the Outer Dark make contact, the result is an intense enmity.
The Abyss seeks a cosmos without meaning or form—at least not in the way humans understand
it—but Hell relies upon the world, loves it even. The world is a furnace of sin, and demons warm themselves at it.
Hell burns, but for demons, only sin provides truly comforting heat. For their lot, the Abyss’ minions
—their Scelesti, mad cultists and alien servants—despise the way Infernal corruption fixes a victim’s
mind upon flesh, sensation and the petty concerns of human minds and bodies.

So, the Scelesti part is out of the table, but the idea of bringing the Inferno to the Fallen World is really cool.
And with that in mind, why not both options? A and B.
Trying to bring the Infernal Truth to the Fallen World, the nickname Sinners would have so much more meaning with this.

That being said, he really wants to keep the "I do not age" part. Not because he fears death, but he can't accept the fact that he will grow old and ugly.
He wants to keep a young beauty until his last breath.

[Axelgear]

The reason blending both doesn't work is because one is focused on recreating the Time Before while the other is focused on getting back to it. Not the most exact wording but you get the idea. While they might appear similar in practice, the way they understand the thing they're doing is crucially different. One is trying to rebuild a broken world, while the other is trying to undo its breaking in the first place, if you get my meanings.

That affects how the character sees magic; how they see their goals; how they see their Legacy. It's important that be consistent.

And, yeah, I wasn't suggesting the Abyss and Inferno are the same; the second idea was to drop the Inferno in favour of the Abyss. Go full Scelestus.

[Horodrigo]

Well, we got the suggestion A.

Until now, the Attainments are:

1st: Exorcist Eyes, but it can also see Infernal Demons and Possessed NPCs.
Optional: Space magic let him feel Irises with P. Mage Sight.

2nd: Channel Essence, to feed spirits with corrupted Essence of Sin.
Optional: Borrow Threads to steal wifes and commit sins and etc.

3rd: Spirit Summons, only spirits that ressonate with one of the 7 sins can be summoned.
Optional: Ban paradox from an area, making it manifest itself outside the affected area.

Thoughts?

The player still wants some method of having eternal youth. Can a Spirit just give this to him?

[Mrmdubois]

Sort of, Scions of God use Spirit to become immortal, but that makes them spirits and their nature and appearance may remain the same at first, but will likely drift over time.

[Horodrigo]

Sort of, Scions of God use Spirit to become immortal, but that makes them spirits and their nature and appearance may remain the same at first, but will likely drift over time.

He don't want to be immortal. Just to not age until he dies. Like, live his 90 or something years looking like a guy with 28.

[Mrmdubois]

He don't want to be immortal. Just to not age until he dies. Like, live his 90 or something years looking like a guy with 28.

Grab a spirit of youthfulness, make a pact.

[Axelgear]

Well, we got the suggestion A.

Until now, the Attainments are:

1st: Exorcist Eyes, but it can also see Infernal Demons and Possessed NPCs.
Optional: Space magic let him feel Irises with P. Mage Sight.

2nd: Channel Essence, to feed spirits with corrupted Essence of Sin.
Optional: Borrow Threads to steal wifes and commit sins and etc.

3rd: Spirit Summons, only spirits that ressonate with one of the 7 sins can be summoned.
Optional: Ban paradox from an area, making it manifest itself outside the affected area.

Thoughts?

The player still wants some method of having eternal youth. Can a Spirit just give this to him?

The first two attainments look good, but I'd tweak the third one. Do something extreme and give him the ability to conjure Infernal entities in the same way others conjure Supernal beings. Make them big and imposing things. These would be the big Inferno spirits; the legendary lords of hellfire. Things he can bargain with for eternal youth and beauty, that sort of thing.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure you can apply a Ban to Paradox. I mean... What Arcana would it use?

[Horodrigo]

Grab a spirit of youthfulness, make a pact.

Since Infernal Demons follow the rules from spirit beings, I'll use the suggestion from Axel. But thanks for the suggestion. I really didn't knew that normal spirits can also make pacts like that.

The first two attainments look good, but I'd tweak the third one. Do something extreme and give him the ability to conjure Infernal entities in the same way others conjure Supernal beings. Make them big and imposing things. These would be the big Inferno spirits; the legendary lords of hellfire. Things he can bargain with for eternal youth and beauty, that sort of thing.

Literally excellent.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure you can apply a Ban to Paradox. I mean... What Arcana would it use?

Err... mea culpa. I used Ban, from Space 3. Don't know if it's possible to literally Ban paradox. I literally don't know what to do with Space here.

[Tessie]

Normally Ban covers everything within the target area. You can specifically target a phenomenon so that Ban only applies to the specified phenomenon, or Ban everything except a specific phenomenon. But in order to do so you need to include the Arcanum/Arcana that governs that phenomenon. I believe that would be impossible to do with Paradox except if the character is a Scelestus and you use the Abyssal Arcanum homebrew. By RAW it should be completely impossible to target Paradox.

[Jakondite]

You could create a ban as a sort of binding circle for the entities that you summon with the other attainment in order to operate safely? Or utilize perfect sympathy to better work against people - man an demon - and convince them to operate to your will.

[Mrmdubois]

Since Infernal Demons follow the rules from spirit beings, I'll use the suggestion from Axel. But thanks for the suggestion. I really didn't knew that normal spirits can also make pacts like that.

Yeah, I mean specifically the Pact system from Summoners, but I think it's the same or very similar to the one in Infernal. Anyway, youthfulness is certainly within the purview of some ephemeral beings. Infernal demons by the way use spirit rules, but they aren't spirits (Except when they are).

Adding onto what Axelgear said I'd make the highest rank Infernal you can summon be 5 like what happens with Supernal entities.

Jakondite has a good idea with Perfect Sympathy.