Guidelines for Especially Useful Legacy Attainments

[galivet]

Considering the special mechanics of legacy attainments, I'd like to discuss the rules of thumb for designing ones that are mechanically appealing.

I'm still learning so I'd appreciate corrections and alternative ideas.

I make the assumption that a legacy attainment should be useful to a mage who meets the minimum requirements to learn it, so low-rank attainments should be useful with few dots in the primary arcanum of the legacy.

The main constraints are the spell factor limitations:

1. Per the errata, legacy attainments gain primary ranks equal to dots in the relevant arcanum minus one
2. Legacy attainments spell factor ranks cannot be increased through yantras, teamwork, or extended ritual casting
3. I assume that activating a legacy attainment is not a spellcasting roll and therefore it's not possible to achieve an Exceptional Success using the automatic successes you get from arcanum dots
4. If the effect is Duration primary, it will have negligible Potency (at best Potency 3 for a Master)
5. If the effect is Potency primary, it's possible to spend reach on Advanced Duration to still get a a reasonable duration. Otherwise, only a Master can eek out a three-turn duration.

These are the main benefits:

1. No chance of failure, unless Withstood (if relevant)
2. No paradox
3. No wisdom loss
4. No possibility of counter-spelling or dispelling
5. Does not count against gnosis-defined spell control limit

Finally, there is the rule that the Reach allowed for each attainment gets calculated by subtracting from the rank of the attainment the rank of the Practice it utilizes. That's okay because a number of reach options are pointless for legacy attainments: Advanced Potency, Indefinite Duration, exceeding spell control slots, and probably Advanced Scale.

So I think you get these heuristics:

1. Withstood effects are less desirable.
   1. Because Spirit effects that cross the Gauntlet get Withstood by Gauntlet strength, special care must be taken when defining Spirit-based legacies. The attainments should focus on affecting subjects in Twilight or the Fallen World. Because of the purview of Spirit (Essence, spirits, the Shadow, the Gauntlet), most Spirit effects are Withstood either by the subject or the Gauntlet itself.
   2. For other arcanum, attainments of Rank 1 - 3 should probably be designed not to be Withstood. Many Compelling, Ruling, and Fraying effects will not make good Legacy attainments unless reserved for rank 4 or 5, where you can assume that the mage acquiring that rank will have 4 or 5 dots in the relevant arcanum.
2. Duration-primary effects that provoke Clash of Wills are highly desirable.
3. Buffs are highly desirable because they cannot be dispelled and do not count against the normal spell control limit

So typically when building mechanically-appealing legacy attainments, I think these are useful suggestions:

Rank 1

Reasonable options:

• A Knowing effect
• A Compelling effect that acts on the passive environment (these are typically Duration-primary)
• A Compelling effect that acts upon the caster herself

For a Spirit-primary legacy, the first attainment is pretty much always going to be a variation of Exorcist's Eye; there just isn't another effective option given the purview of Spirit. For a Forces-primary legacy you can Compel because the subject forces do not Withstand casting.

From the perspective of the mage who merely meets the prerequisites of the attainment, the Knowing spell will typically give the best bang for the buck. For example, Craftsman's Eye is fine with one Potency and a one-turn duration. Cleanse the Body will only work out if such a mage can perfectly time the use of the attainment.

Rank 2

The best option is probably a Ruling spell that does not involve Withstand. Shielding and Veiling effects are better saved for the next rank when you can spend reach to get Advanced Duration for the CoW bonus, but you could also do them at Rank 2 and accept that you'll need to spend a scene activating the attainment.

Rank 3

This is a great rank for a Duration-primary Shielding or Veiling spell that provokes CoW, e.g. Mental Shield. Spend the free reach on Advanced Duration and instant casting time. Even a mage who merely meets the requirements for the attainment will get a +1 bonus to CoW and shield or veil can't be dispelled. The CoW bonus increases (a little) as the mage increases dots in the primary arcanum.

Rank 4

This is a great rank for a Perfecting self-buff. If the buff is Duration primary, consider spending the two reach to swap the primary factor to Potency and to give it Advanced Duration. If the buff is already Potency primary, then go for Advanced Duration and Instant Casting, OR consider making it the Rank 3 attainment instead. Either way, it results in a long-lasting buff that cannot be dispelled and does not consume a spell control slot.

Rank 5

I would use this one for a purely thematic effect since most mage characters will not get Gnosis 8 anyway, and if they do then they don't need to lean on their last legacy attainment for actual utility.

[21C Hermit]

I thought Legacy Attainments didn't roll dice? When number of successes matter, the mage gains automatic successes equal to her dots in the Attainment's required Arcanum. (So a Master is always getting exceptional successes)

For Withstand ratings, in my homebrews I often slip in an option to bypass them by meeting certain conditions. Conditions which compel the mage to act in certain behavioral patterns that fit the Legacy.

Other than that, I agree with most of these. But then again, I sometimes throw out performance optimality just for cool factors. Not that optimality is wrong, of course. Even in-universe, Attainments are a great lure for gathering new initiates.

[Scarlet Witch]

I thought Legacy Attainments didn't roll dice? When number of successes matter, the mage gains automatic successes equal to her dots in the Attainment's required Arcanum. (So a Master is always getting exceptional successes)

For Withstand ratings, in my homebrews I often slip in an option to bypass them by meeting certain conditions. Conditions which compel the mage to act in certain behavioral patterns that fit the Legacy.

Other than that, I agree with most of these. But then again, I sometimes throw out performance optimality just for cool factors. Not that optimality is wrong, of course. Even in-universe, Attainments are a great lure for gathering new initiates.

Woah, does that mean it IS possible to negate withstand using an attainment if it is done by a master? Or is that only an option with normal spells because, well, you won't be choosing "increase reach" or "increase spellfactors" like you do with normal spells?

____

So about legacies. What's with the three-turn/three-potency thing? I get the minus one part but wouldn't that be, um, 4? I noticed it in the corebook too but it confused me cuz I thought it was an error that escaped the errata.
It sounds REALLY difficult to make certain attainments useful, or even certain legacy concepts all but impossible, even for gnosis 8 mages.
Why is indefinite duration useless for attainments? I thought that would be coveted, even if it requires adding mana to the attainment.

rank 2 stuff : You mention the clash of wills bonus for extended duration. Do you mean +1 for day, +2 for week, +4 for year, that sorta thing (I might have gotten the numbers wrong but, I hope you get my point). Wouldnt' those be useless if the clash of wills successes are automatically set to the dots of your arcanum? or do the "automatic successes" never apply to a Clash of Wills?

[21C Hermit]

Woah, does that mean it IS possible to negate withstand using an attainment if it is done by a master? Or is that only an option with normal spells because, well, you won't be choosing "increase reach" or "increase spellfactors" like you do with normal spells?

Are you referring to that rule where an exceptional success on a spell allows the caster to bypass Withstand? If so, then I see why not. Masters are not to be trifled with.

[Scarlet Witch]

Are you referring to that rule where an exceptional success on a spell allows the caster to bypass Withstand? If so, then I see why not. Masters are not to be trifled with.

So if an archmage who doesn't have a legacy yet decides to make one, they can basically just disrupt all of the above heuristics and make whatever broken attainment they want and just go on a miracle-journey across the cosmos with their paradox-free, pax-free magic...?

[Mrmdubois]

Are you referring to that rule where an exceptional success on a spell allows the caster to bypass Withstand? If so, then I see why not. Masters are not to be trifled with.

If you say that activating an attainment is the same as casting a spell then it actually starts becoming an ES at 3 dots instead of mastery because attainments are made of modified Praxes.

[21C Hermit]

So if an archmage who doesn't have a legacy yet decides to make one, they can basically just disrupt all of the above heuristics and make whatever broken attainment they want and just go on a miracle-journey across the cosmos with their paradox-free, pax-free magic...?

Isn't that what they're pretty much doing?

I suppose the Pax Arcanum stops them from too much miracle journeys. And it could be that Imperial Spells (Arcanum 6+) still need Quintessence or can't be made into Attainments, since we don't know how archmages in 2e function. Lastly, I always assume creatures of such cosmic power are both too rare to be of concern to most people, and are often minding their own business instead of directly meddling with others. But this is just my preference on how things like this work, so YMMV.

[21C Hermit]

If you say that activating an attainment is the same as casting a spell then it actually starts becoming an ES at 3 dots instead of mastery because attainments are made of modified Praxes.

I knew that they were modified spells, but modified Praxes?

Hmm.. has anyone covered this before? All I'm sure is that Attainments don't need to roll dice pools, and if they need successes they use the mage's Arcanum dots. Perhaps I'm missing something. Maybe exceptional successes don't count as "needing" successes? (This is hair-splitting, rules-lawyer stuff, but hey it does make some sense...)

[galivet]

I could be wrong, but I don't think activating an attainment is a spellcasting roll. Based on the language in the book, I don't think that you're meant to achieve Exceptional Success from activating a legacy attainment:

If the Attainment would require a measurement of its successes, it automatically scores a number of successes equal to the mage’s dots in the highest prerequisite Arcanum

Emphasis mine. Sounds to me more like "If for some weird reason it comes up..." rather than "For using with this important and obvious feature of the game that will come up all the time for Masters..."

"Dice pools" language by me was sloppy. I just meant the low cap on spell factors. I'm going to edit that to avoid confusion. It is primarily a limitation because I assume that legacy attainments do not have a way to avoid Withstand under RAW.

[Scarlet Witch]

Okay so, if you have an Attainment and your primary spellfactor is potency, and you're a Master of this arcanum, why do you have potency 3 instead of potency 5, or even potency 4?
with improvised magic, you have a minus 1 to the spellfactor anyway, right? Cuz the phrase is something like, you get the base factors, then a bonus equal to ranks on the spellfactors -1, right? So a Master's spells are often potency 5 if the spell uses potency as its primary factor right?

So if the attainment rules mean minus 1 ontop of what you expect, that would be... potency 4. So why is it potency 3 is the limit? and why is it even lower for the secondary spellfactor, making it 2 turns?

[Mrmdubois]

Okay so, if you have an Attainment and your primary spellfactor is potency, and you're a Master of this arcanum, why do you have potency 3 instead of potency 5, or even potency 4?
with improvised magic, you have a minus 1 to the spellfactor anyway, right? Cuz the phrase is something like, you get the base factors, then a bonus equal to ranks on the spellfactors -1, right? So a Master's spells are often potency 5 if the spell uses potency as its primary factor right?

So if the attainment rules mean minus 1 ontop of what you expect, that would be... potency 4. So why is it potency 3 is the limit? and why is it even lower for the secondary spellfactor, making it 2 turns?

He was talking about Potency as the secondary factor can only hit 3 if you round up.

Primary Factor is Arcana-1 because if it followed normal rules you'd actually end up with a Primary Factor of Arcana +1 since a spell that scores a success is automatically counted as having achieved Duration 1, and Potency 1.

[Mrmdubois]

I knew that they were modified spells, but modified Praxes?

When you develop an attainment it's specifically called out in the book as being developed from a Praxes and then the rules tell you how to modify it from a Praxes into an attainment.

[galivet]

rank 2 stuff : You mention the clash of wills bonus for extended duration. Do you mean +1 for day, +2 for week, +4 for year, that sorta thing (I might have gotten the numbers wrong but, I hope you get my point). Wouldnt' those be useless if the clash of wills successes are automatically set to the dots of your arcanum? or do the "automatic successes" never apply to a Clash of Wills?

Clash of Wills is a contested roll-off of Gnosis + Arcanum. That series of contested rolls is unrelated to the original roll to cast the spell that provoked the CoW or the activation of an attainment. The bonus from Advanced Duration that I describe affects the CoW roll-off.

[Scarlet Witch]

He was talking about Potency as the secondary factor can only hit 3 if you round up.

Primary Factor is Arcana-1 because if it followed normal rules you'd actually end up with a Primary Factor of Arcana +1 since a spell that scores a success is automatically counted as having achieved Duration 1, and Potency 1.

I feel like an idiot. I think your explanation only made me feel more confused. Is this saying that legacies have less potency than a improvised spell that has no dice penalties? Like if you have a choice between casting something as an attainment or as an improvised spell and your, say, Forces is 4, what's the base potency of the spell in either case? Cuz I thought it was 4 in both cases, 4 potency as an attainment, or 4 potency as an improvised spell (unless you take penalties to increase spellfactors.)

I still have no idea why the secondary factor is 2 less than the primary factor... Other than it just saying "do it?" When I first read legacies, I thought "lowest prerequisite arcanum" meant something like, if your secondary spellfactor is duration and your 5th attainment uses a 3rd dot spell, then the secondary spellfactor will have 3 ranks to it (say 3 turns or a week duration), because the lowest requirement is 3 dots if it is a 3 dot spell being used for the attainment--meanwhile potency will be whatever your actual arcanum dots are, 3 or higher.

So before reading this topic, I thought the legacy attainment would work like this---If you have primary factor potency, and used advanced duration reach, and are a Master of Forces, your spell will have 5 potency and could last 1 year. In the book, the example says it will last 3 turns, but I don't understand why, unless "lowest prerequisite arcanum" means that the example attainment was a 3 dot spell and then that would make it last 3 turns?
So in my example, does the 1 year duration or a 1 week duration depend wholly on whether this attainment is the 5th or the 3rd?

Clash of Wills is a contested roll-off of Gnosis + Arcanum. That series of contested rolls is unrelated to the original roll to cast the spell that provoked the CoW or the activation of an attainment. The bonus from Advanced Duration that I describe affects the CoW roll-off.

Hmm. I guess the Eleventh Question's 1st attainment that uses optional matter isn't a clash of wills? It did not say it was, so I guess not, but I assumed because using mage sight to pierce supernatural concealment normally calls for one...

[galivet]

Why is indefinite duration useless for attainments? I thought that would be coveted, even if it requires adding mana to the attainment.

It's useless because under the rules it's not possible to get enough ranks in Duration to achieve the indefinite level unless Duration is the primary spell factor and the casting mage has seven dots in the relevant arcanum. The 2E rules don't provide a system for achieving such a rating. You can port the archmastery rules, but most players aren't involved in such a game anyway.