Yantras. Are they good enough?

[Johnny Awesome]

I really love the idea of Yantras. I think Dave and crew did a fantastic thing bringing them into the game, but sometimes I worry that they aren't good enough to get as much use as they could.

In combat, no one ever wants to take two turns, so it's pretty obvious that you would use Rote Mudras 1st or your Tool if Paradox was a concern. After that the difference between a Rare Sacrement and using a Tool is a pretty minor +1 and my players are pretty much ignoring most of the other Yantras in combat.

Out of combat, it's a no brainer to use High Speech and usually either Runes or Concentration depending what you're doing, until Gnosis 3. Which is about the half-way point of most Chronicles, so the other Yantras are still under-utilized IMO.

I don't have as much play experience as some of you do, but my feeling right now is that most PCs aren't going to bother with Sacraments & Environmental Yantras much, until maybe Gnosis 5, but maybe that's by design.

What do you guys think?

[Tessie]

Last time I was in combat in Mage I used my Persona for a +4 Yantra to grant a cabalmate extra Weaponry dots to let him slash the Acamoth because we didn't want to target it directly with spells. The Persona is formed around seeking information and the rationale was that I was imparting information about fighting to my cabalmate.
Other than that you could use Concentration as a go-to Yantra for damage-dealing spells and other spells that are lasting even when in a combat situation.

[Zombiecakes]

I, personally, use all sorts of Yantras for flavoring spells, and adding a needed to Improvised magic that I don't have much power to add to. I see Yantras as great for out of combat scenarios, like investigation, socialization, or other assorted aspects of your character's daily life.

I do mostly stick to my Persona or DMT if I require a boost in combat, I admit. That being said, other Yantras are only really going to be as used as a player would want to invest flavor or deeper roleplaying into their gamestyle, not just for mechanics alone.

[Johnny Awesome]

Yeah, which is my small criticism: Environment and Sacrament seem a little too disincentivised mechanically.

[Satchel]

Yeah, which is my small criticism: Environment and Sacrament seem a little too disincentivised mechanically.

The big draw to the regular +1 Environment Yantra is that using it doesn't require any special action on your part — as long as the spell you're trying to cast has an effect appropriate to a forest/clinic/library/river/stadium/etc, it gets the bonus without inherently drawing attention to you save through the change in your Spatial sympathy. It's handy for improvising spells, squeezing a little bit more out of your bus space, or making use of As Above, So Below for a Praxis that doesn't qualify for your normal go-to bonuses. Not quite worth killing over next to the likes of Verges and Demesnes, but every little bit helps.

Sacraments, meanwhile, get incentivized chiefly by the extradimensional boost that can push a normal rare item up to +3; trafficking in more common reagents from another world means you can have a small collection of free spell factors with or without personal specialization toward a given trick. Again, it's most useful for pushing your limits or stepping outside your area of specialty — freshly harvested ectoplasm or materialized street-Gaffling ichor isn't going to have much point if you're just shooting Howl From Beyond at someone at a moment's notice, but if you need to build a spirit or seal an Avernian Gate then the extra push is going to matter a bit more.

Environment and Sacrament trade off categorical power for blanket versatility and convenience, in other words; they're more useful when you want to be subtle or avoid building weak points into the products of your spells than when you just need A Yantra.

[HerbertIsBestBert]

I like them.

Concentration and Runes establish major flaws in an Imago, and get a corresponding bonus.
High Speech is a powerful Yantra, and thus taught by every Order, but not usable reflexively.
Sacrament is a yantra where you get out of it the effort you put in, +1 for minor, +2 for considerble, +3 for "I crush this skull I took from the underworld".

Environment is the loser out of the bunch, it's very minor and there are much easier ones to use. However when you consider that Environment+ (Demesne and Verge) are +2 yantrs, that does make sense.
Ultimately, I think it's there because it has to be. People will rarely use it, but when in the moment you can't think of much to use, and you want to blast someone with lightning in the middle of a thunderstorm, well... It has its uses.

It does have one upside though. It's very easy to just enhance it with Words and Sigils then unsafely relinquish it to chug away for when you need it.
And generally won't stick out like a sore thumb should someone want to scan you.
It's probably a smart move to hook one room in your Sanctum up to work as an Environmental Yantra for your usual "class" of spells, for when you don't have either the time or patience to make anything better work, but you have enough time to use as many Yantras as you can.
Though that's more of a problem for Gnosis 5+ Mages, who have a bountiful bevy of Yantra slots.

[maryshelly]

How about Rotes? Skill based bonus and free reach? How do they compare to other yantras?

[Thorbes]

Mudras are the best possible Yantra in terms of power alone, being able to get as high as +5. This is balanced by the fact that you can only use them for that particular spell.

The free reach is a diminishing bonus, the more skilled you are, the least impact it has. The Rote quality is were the good stuff is, making the spell more reliable wich is the point of a Rote after all.

[MCN]

Environmental Yanttas get used in Sanctums a lot, I notice. Shadow Names get used if we arrange a thematic cabal - they get ignored in favor of other +2 or higher bonuses.

My experience is that characters, after a bit, end up not using anything that gives you less than +2 dice bonus. For that matter, I also notice the +1 bonus from Adamantine Hand and Free Council get ignored as not worth the xp cost. Actually, I've noticed that the silver ladder one gets ignored too.

Another experience I've noticed is that team spellcasting is worthless, but team buffs from other magic is powerful, often outstripping pure yantras, save a Rote or Shadow Name. Everyone has a way to buff each other, which gets rediculously huge dice pools.

The Steadfast Condition sees a lot of use. As long as you have one die, its an automatic success on your spellcasting pool. Dice tricks, however, have all but vanished from use.

[Satchel]

Another experience I've noticed is that team spellcasting is worthless, but team buffs from other magic is powerful, often outstripping pure yantras, save a Rote or Shadow Name. Everyone has a way to buff each other, which gets rediculously huge dice pools.

The Steadfast Condition sees a lot of use. As long as you have one die, its an automatic success on your spellcasting pool. Dice tricks, however, have all but vanished from use.

This is, for the record, much of my rationale for reading the "apply boons to spellcasting" Reach effects in Fate as limited to dice tricks — it very directly breaks the point of Yantras being a thing and the only outright magic-booster in Prime being a dice-trick adder would seem to indicate that messing with spellcasting rolls in a way that obviates the purpose of taking penalties for grander effects is outside the intended scope of the mechanic.

[MCN]

Personally,I was actually thinking of Scribe Grimoire, Channel Mana and Supernal Veil as the Prime buffs. As well, you can effectively create a higher potency Environment through Prime. As Above, So Below is just... an odd spell in the first place, at least in my opinion. Doesn't really fit the one-success paradigm of magic for the most part. I suppose if you have a few spells that you're aiming to get exceptioanl successes on for some reason, it makes sense, but that's not something I imagine is common. At least not in my games.