What are the twisted Abyssal reflections of Dataweavers alternate watchtowers like?

[123456789blaaa]

Left Hand Path details how mid ranking Scelesti journey to twisted perversions of their watchtowers in the Abyss (page 68). These are called their Dur-Abzu. "For example, the Anti-Aether is the flooded ocean-floor wreckage of the Nephilim's cities - the cold, dark symbolism of power utterly destroyed as the mirror to the Aether."

Now, the reflections of the five standard watchtowers are detailed in the book. Recently though, I came across Dataweavers excellent alternate watchtowers:

I worked up a set of five designed to complement the standard five, and posted them on the old forums and on the old Wiki. Here’s a summary:

Epikrateia
Sorcerers on the Path of Mastery; scions of the Watchtower of the Brazen Lamp in the Realm of Mount Qaf, Kingdom of the Living Elements, Abode of the Djinn.

Path Attribute: Resolve
Ruling Arcana: Forces and Spirit
Inferior Arcanum: Prime
Nimbus: "Inflaming"
Tarot: the Emperor
Common Virtue and Vice: Justice and Wrath
Existing Legacies: Clavicularius, Tamers of Sands
New Legacies: Djinn Summoners?

This is a slightly modified version of the Watchtower of Brass and Flame from the Mage Chronicler’s Guide. I changed the name to conform to the naming scheme used by every other Watchtower (but tried to keep the essence of “Brass and Flame” in the new name), and I changed the Path Attribute from Composure to Resolve to reflect the more forceful personalities I envisioned them having.

Chrysopos
Alchemists on the Path of Excellence,
Scions of the Watchtower of the Copper Mallet in the Realm of Utopia,
Kingdom of Perfection, Abode of Archetypes.

Path Attribute: Composure
Ruling Arcana: Matter and Prime
Inferior Arcanum: Fate
Nimbus: "Perfectionist"
Tarot: Temperance
Common Virtue and Vice: Prudence and Greed
Existing Legacies: Uncrowned Kings, Daksha, Scions of God, Transhuman Engineers, Tamers of Iron, Forge Masters
New Legacies: a Summoner Legacy that draws upon “Platonic Archetypes” of things.

The theme of this Path was intended to encompass all mystics centered on the notion of magical items, not just practitioners of Supernal Alchemy — though they tend to excel in that, too. Prime was selected for the alchemists to represent the raw building blocks of reality, and because of its usefulness in working with Imbued Items of all sorts.

Palinoros
Druids on the Path of Balance, Scions of the Watchtower of the Wooden Chalice in the Realm of Yggdrasil,
Kingdom of Seasons, Abode of Gæans

Path Attribute: Resolve
Ruling Arcana: Life and Death
Inferior Arcanum: Time
Nimbus: "Patient"
Tarot: Wheel of Fortune
Common Virtue and Vice: Temperance and Envy
Existing Legacies: Orphans of Proteus, Walkers in the Mists, Sodality of the Tor, Dreamspeakers, Tamers of Trees, Tamers of Blood?, Thread Cutters
New Legacies:

I wanted to build a Path out of the pairing of Life and Death, and took European paganism (particularly the druids of the British Islands) as my inspiration. “Gæans” is a vague term for its denizens, and I was never really happy with it. At various points, I considered serpents, Ent-like tree-people, and Dryads as candidates; but I never settled on a single, consistent set of imagery for the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Seasons.
This Path differs from the Thyrsus in that it’s more of a “Circle of Life” thing than an “eat or be eaten” thing: nature green in growth and decay rather than nature red in tooth and claw.

Cælum
Astrologers on the Path of Discovery,
Scions of the Watchtower of the Hermium Mirror in the Realm of the Firmament,
Kingdom of Vision, Abode of Stars

Path Attribute: Composure
Ruling Arcana: Space and Fate
Inferior Arcanum: Life
Nimbus: "Watchful"
Tarot: the Star
Common Virtue and Vice: Faith and Greed
Existing Legacies:Subtle Ones, Threnodists, Tamers of Light, Sphinxes, Thrice-Great, House of Ariadne?
New Legacies: a Summoner Legacy that calls the Stars down for guidance.

The Cælum were very loosely based off of the historical antecedents of Mage: the Ascension’s Void Engineers: the Void Seekers and the Celestial Masters. Fate is for when they look to the heavens for guidance about the future; Space is for when they look to the heavens for guidance about the world around them. The Stars than inhabit the Firmament are generally humanoid figures, inspired by the stars in C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series (esp. Voyage of the Dawn Treader); it’s a notion that has also been used by Neil Gaiman in Stardust and Endless Nights.

Hieraoidos
Bards on the Path of Enlightenment,
Scions of the Watchtower of the Tin Flute in the Realm of the Akasha,
Kingdom of Stories, Abode of Zeitgeists

Path Attribute: Resolve
Ruling Arcana: Time and Mind
Inferior Arcanum: Space
Nimbus: "Iconic"
Tarot: the Magician
Common Virtue and Vice: Charity and Sloth
Existing Legacies: Perfected Adepts, Daoine?, House of Ariadne?, Pygmalions, Stone Scribes, Skalds
New Legacies: Ecstatics who channel Zeitgeists

Nearly every time I’ve seen someone do a Legacy or Path featuring Time, it has been forward-looking; so I wanted to do something aligned more with the past. These folk are based on celtic bards and nordic skalds; they’re storytellers, entertainers, and keepers of ancient wisdom. I drew imagery and concepts from Mage: the Ascension’s Akashic Brotherhood (for the Akashic Record) and the Cult of Ecstasy (for the Zeitgeists).
The Existing Legacies are there if you want to co-opt any of the existing Legacies for use with the new Paths instead of the existing ones. They’re a work in progress. The New Legacies are ideas for Legacies that build on aspects of the Path’s imagery and do not already exist. I’d like at least two per Path, not counting Elemental Tamers or Summoners-style Legacies.

Which got me curious: what would their Abyssal reflections be like? Iblis (the devil in Islam) is a Djinn. I know very very little of Islamic theology but perhaps the Brazen Lamp reflection could draw from that? For the Hermium Mirror reflection, a lovecraftian theme seems obvious (we are insignificant specks in a cold and uncaring universe, surrounded by things so enormous and complex that we cannot even begin to understand them. The future is bleak and knowing it won't help).

And...that's all I can think up. Yes I know it's sparse, that's why I'm asking you guys :P.

[The MG]

the Watchtower of the Brazen Lamp in the Realm of Mount Qaf, Kingdom of the Living Elements, Abode of the Djinn

Zamhareer, the Sealing Palace: A vast, icebound palace beneath a sunless sky, pale and formless beneath the frost. The only motion here is in the snow and ash that drifts from the sky, and the only presence is the wicked djinni that slumbers, frozen, at the heart of the Dur-Abzu. Nineteen angels watch over him, but they have long since lost all semblance of shape and identity.

the Watchtower of the Wooden Chalice in the Realm of Yggdrasil, Kingdom of Seasons, Abode of Gæans

Nidhöggr, the Dragon: The Dragon has no outer form. All it has is the hunger, and all it is is gaping maw and roiling guts. To Join it is to be dissolved, slowly, slowly, in a place of red meat and twisted bones, surrounded by unidentifiable, stinking things torn from the Kingdom of Seasons. Their power courses through the Dragon like steaming, black blood, and the mage who invokes it invokes consumption that fuels only further consumption.

[The Kings Raven]

For the Wooden Chalice (which really should be the Abode of the Serpents) I'd go with

AutoForge: This realm is a vast and unending factory complex, belching steam and ticking to a clockwork heart. Enormous mechanical rollers, hammers and pistons work alongside the latest nano-fabricators and computer automation. The raw materials are all alive, plants, animals and even people go onto the forges to create entirely useless but luxurious products. Everywhere you look there are signs of decay, from rust to signs saying "it has been ____ days since you last changed the oil". The natives, flesh and blood humans, who's vacant stares and plastic smiles look more artificial than the machines constantly worry about declining producting and fight among each other for diminishing raw materials.


The core idea I went here was a realm of Time, Yaggdrasil's inferior Arcanum. Yaggdrasil is a land of eternity. The seasons continue in their cycle and every Death just begets new Life. So AutoForge is a land where no new Life is created, and old life constantly suffers Death. The core theme is that everything is finite, and Time is ticking down until it runs out for good. The mechanical nature is mostly because, natural extinction events don't come with clocks or charts.

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Whoops, forgot about this thread:
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Zamhareer, the Sealing Palace: A vast, icebound palace beneath a sunless sky, pale and formless beneath the frost. The only motion here is in the snow and ash that drifts from the sky, and the only presence is the wicked djinni that slumbers, frozen, at the heart of the Dur-Abzu. Nineteen angels watch over him, but they have long since lost all semblance of shape and identity.

Nidhöggr, the Dragon: The Dragon has no outer form. All it has is the hunger, and all it is is gaping maw and roiling guts. To Join it is to be dissolved, slowly, slowly, in a place of red meat and twisted bones, surrounded by unidentifiable, stinking things torn from the Kingdom of Seasons. Their power courses through the Dragon like steaming, black blood, and the mage who invokes it invokes consumption that fuels only further consumption.

Awesome! I didn't know about Zamhareer before but looking it up now, it seems like a perfect fit. Thanks . Where's the bit about the wicked Djinni and the nineteen angels from? I couldn't find it in my cursory Google searches.

Nidhoggr is also a pretty great choice. A nice parallel with the Yggdrasil name of it's counterpart Watchtower. The endless consumption thing is in clear opposition to the "balance" theme of the counterpart. Also, "dragon" was a word also used as a synonym for worm (perhaps calling the realm "Nidhöggr, the Wyrm" instead to evoke both?). Nidhoggr itself reminds me more of a maggot than a traditional fire-breather. As a symbol of death that is also exhibts clear qualities of life (hunger), this fits quite well with the its ruling arcana. Nice...am I missing any other reasons you chose this direction to go in?

For the Wooden Chalice (which really should be the Abode of the Serpents) I'd go with
AutoForge: This realm is a vast and unending factory complex, belching steam and ticking to a clockwork heart. Enormous mechanical rollers, hammers and pistons work alongside the latest nano-fabricators and computer automation. The raw materials are all alive, plants, animals and even people go onto the forges to create entirely useless but luxurious products. Everywhere you look there are signs of decay, from rust to signs saying "it has been ____ days since you last changed the oil". The natives, flesh and blood humans, who's vacant stares and plastic smiles look more artificial than the machines constantly worry about declining producting and fight among each other for diminishing raw materials.

The core idea I went here was a realm of Time, Yaggdrasil's inferior Arcanum. Yaggdrasil is a land of eternity. The seasons continue in their cycle and every Death just begets new Life. So AutoForge is a land where no new Life is created, and old life constantly suffers Death. The core theme is that everything is finite, and Time is ticking down until it runs out for good. The mechanical nature is mostly because, natural extinction events don't come with clocks or charts.

An interesting alternative direction. I really like the core idea. Building off of the Inferior Arcanum is something I didn't even think of.

I think I slightly prefer MG's take since Consumerism seems more like a Seer's of the Throne thing to me and rot is also a major theme of the Moros Dur-Abzu (which does make sense given that they both have Death as a ruling Arcanum). I also like the mythological symmetry with MG's one. Thank you for posting Autoforge though, I think it's pretty cool .
Man, with two people posting great ideas for the Watchtower, I feel like I should probably be contributing too instead of just looking at other peoples work. Below is a couple of sentences on the Hermium Mirror Dur-Abzu:

[X]: In the endless black void of [X] concepts of distance and sympathy seem meaningless. Enormous and hideous yet indistinct shapes shift throughout the void, in accordance with the alien movements of a vast host of coldly burning stars. These distant and unreachable stars are the only things that can be clearly seen.

I'm not satisfied at all with it but hopefully it will inspire people a bit. Lovecraft was focused on how vast and impersonal the universe was which fits quite well as the reverse of the Space Arcanum. He also focused on how humans were helpless to stop the incomprehensible actions of Greater things which I think fits well as the reverse of the Fate Arcanum's associations with destiny. "When the stars are right", R'lyeh will rise from the sea, never to sink again, and Cthulhu will awaken and revel across the world, "ravening for delight" is a pretty iconic quote of Lovecraft's. Tying them together seemed obvious given that the Hermium Mirror is the Abode of the Stars.

Also, what rites and tools do the Joined mages of your Dur-Abzu use?

[Dataweaver]

I’m feeling like a very proud papa right now; my kids are growing up and taking on a life of their own. The Dur-Abzu of the additional five Watchtowers is not something I would have thought of; but I heartily applaud the effort. I’ll have to put some thought into this; but so far, I agree with 123456789blaaa’s conclusions.

The Heiraoidos are all about remembering the past so you can learn lessons from it. The thematic opposite of that would be a realm of forgetfulness — say, the River of Lethe?

(I’m also curious about how well the Ten Watchtowers arrangement will stand up to the changes being wrought in Fallen World Chronicle; but that’s a subject for the future, once we start getting more hints about how the core Paths are going to change.)

[Thorbes]

Apparently, not much. The primary change being the Achantus becoming the Path of Thorns and being more about being Xanatos on esteroids instead of happy go lucky types.

[The Kings Raven]

Apparently, not much. The primary change being the Achantus becoming the Path of Thorns and being more about being Xanatos on esteroids instead of happy go lucky types.

Are estrogen some sort of estrogen or steroids with a typo? Because Xanatos on estrogen is an awesome metaphor for Achantus now that the FTC is embracing the historical tendency for magicians to be associated with unusual gender roles.

[Thorbes]

Say what?! It said steroids all along, its not edited as you can see

Your subsconscious is tricking you, raven

Thought that will be interesting if they talk about gender roles in magic, shamen tended to be cross/transgender for example.

EDIT: ah, now I see it, I added an starting "e" to steroids. My bad, we don't have starting Ss in my language and sometimes it carries over.

[Dataweaver]

I didn’t mean to derail the topic, so I’ll keep this short: my primary concern is whether or not the Moros will change enough to clash with the Chrysopos. As things stand, the Moros are presented as the Path of Doom, which has little conceptual interference with the Chrysopos’ Path of Excellence; but if they’re changed to be, say, the Path of Transformation or something like that, the overlap between a Moros alchemist and a Chrysopos alchemist might be a bit much. Or not.

But anyway, back on topic: what would the sick, twisted reflection of the Chrysopos’ Supernal Realm look like? The Chrysopos are about refinement toward perfection; their dark reflection would probably be something about entropy.

[Thorbes]

Or corruption, degradation, making things worthless. The Kingdom of Rust?

[ganonso]

My two cents

Caelum: Kadath

There is a city upon a mountain in middle of the frozen wastes. The mountain is so big, you could walk several weeks and saw it unchanged before your eyes. It's the only landmark of this realm and even then a treacherous one for it lies neither before or behind you but in a space in-between. If you can walk to the halls of the great castle, you will see a mockery of fate. Great beings older than time cavort and frolick in the darkened room, each waiting the alignement of the stars.

To Join this realm, you must realize the universe is cold and indiferrent to your suffering. You must reconize that, considering its vastness, it is foolish to deem places and people more important than others. In the void of Kadath you realize there is few differences between you and the maddening Old Ones.

Joined Mages invoke the Titans and the Jotuns, all the ennemies of the gods once struck down but whose return is foretold. Some piss on tradition and call Lovecraft Great Old Ones' assuring themselves that the Outer Gods care not what name they are called.

[ganonso]

In retrospective, not so satisfied with the blurb ; Perhaps that would be better if the Joining happened in the castle with the frozen wastes for all outer landscape.

Anyway next...

Utopia: Tartarus

There is a pit in the underworld, as far from the earth as the earth is far from the sky. At the beginning you will not see many things, the only light of the realm are dying embers and glittering star-like gems out of your reach. When your eyes will be acustomed to the darkness, you will wish to have gone blind instead. Rows of forge and factories are before you but when you pass all you see is people rushing to useless tasks, scurying and sometimes casting themselves under the gears, into the fire to no avail. All you see is broken and rusty as if the metal is both alive and sick. As you rush pass these buildings you'll see more rotting places, some so rotten they have no workers but fleshlike things crawling without mouths or eyes on the floors. If you choose to continue, you will see the Void at the center of the realm always devouring, always hungry.

To Join this realm is to understand that if nothing is perfect so better if nothing existed. It is to ask yourself "Why create if it will be only be destroyed? Why cling to life, knowing you'll have to die? And still choose to go on, taking power in the paradox. When you join you understand all transformations of Matter are transitory for the fate of all things is to die You understand that before this truth no art of Prime will avail.

Joined mages invoke the Cyclops who forge the weapons of the gods. They call on the Grigori who taught wicked knowledge and were cast out for it. They continue to create magic items but they are often cursed. They pratice distubing alchemies seeking to turn gold to lead and some use the knowledge of the Joining to create Flux energies.

[The MG]

Awesome! I didn't know about Zamhareer before but looking it up now, it seems like a perfect fit. Thanks . Where's the bit about the wicked Djinni and the nineteen angels from? I couldn't find it in my cursory Google searches.

The nineteen angels are (or, in this instance were) the zabaniya who guard Hell in the Koran, and the djinni, then, is Iblis.

[ganonso]

So to summarize what our blurbs say about the fallen Arcana

Fallen Matter : Rust
Fallen Death: Rotting corpses, death without meaning
Fallen Life : Eating Imagery, consuption
Fallen Space: Indifference
Fallen Forces : Ice, calm, immobility
Fallen Spirit : Demons?
Fallen Fate :Indifference? Absolute Freedom?

Others ideas on what symbols and themes could be appropriate?