Do mages need a bit of a nerf to bring them in line?

[maryshelly]

I see that a common opinion is that Mages are overpowered compared to the other splats. Is this ok or will it seriously unbalance the game if mages are allowed to stomp around the World of Darkness as the most powerful beings around. Should there be some ways to bring them in line with everyone else? Here are some ideas that I just brainstormed

1/ Don't allow rotes so easily with some really powerful spells, psychic domination comes to mind. Maybe allow the rote later on with learning, but not readily available at character creation
2/ Don't allow 3 dice with a willpower point when casting a spell
3/ Allow other supernaturals to use supernatural tolerance to resist spells
4/ Don't allow 1 free potency if potency is the nature of the spell ( I recall a rule about that)

Just some ideas, what are your thoughts?

[falco1029]

In my opinion, for a crossover game, Mages can and will steal the focus and be the most powerful thing around if you're not incredibly careful. Even using them as antagonists for other gamelines can be risky if you use the rules as written, in my opinion, and play them as knowledgeable threats. A lone Mage might not be too bad in the latter case, if made carefully, but even a small cabal can do just about anything they need to.

As for house rules, you can see some I made for Withstanding in my homebrew hub, which includes using Supernatural tolerance as a withstand trait. But that alone won't really brings others up to the same level as Mages.

[Mrmdubois]

4 isn't a concern anyway, the free steps up on Potency or Duration is equal to Arcana-1.

[maryshelly]

4 isn't a concern anyway, the free steps up on Potency or Duration is equal to Arcana-1.

That's a lot isn't it? If this would be eliminated it would mean that there would be more free steps available and it would hit the dice pool harder.

[Mrmdubois]

Oh, it was just the wording of the sentence. Okay, yes that would reduce Mages in power a bit because they would have less (not more) free steps available.

[proindrakenzol]

The gameline isn't made to be balanced against other splats. They're balanced against themselves which is all that matters.

[glamourweaver]

The gameline isn't made to be balanced against other splats. They're balanced against themselves which is all that matters.

It matters in the context of crossover games where you may need to make adjustments. Hopefully that will be something the Crossover Guide will delve into.

I agree though it's not a problem in playing an MtA game.

[kryptonitekrusher]

I thought part of the appeal of mage was a system that contextualizes great power and flexibility.



One way you can preserve that is by making magic more dangerous and/or making things cost more to use.

You preserve the raw strength and capability of mages, but you make them think more about how rewards justify the risks.


I'd be fine with playing a mage the way they're intended to be played, yet mindful of a homebrew rule that forces me to spend mana way more often and or exponentially increases paradox.


There is definitely methods of homebrewing a rule or world condition that makes mages much harder to play - but nerfing them entirely within the context of the World of Darkness line seems unfair to the people that are perfectly fine with mages sitting where they do. Particularly if they're not super interested in cross-overs.


Within the context of a game of JUST mages, you can still make other splats exceedingly dangerous as antagonists through resources and planning. But if you're running a cross-over, the mage player severely outclasses everyone else in terms of utility.

In that situation, you'd probably be forced to devote resources to simply occupying the mage, if not outright striking them down instantly by catching them off guard - as their main strength is planning. But then you might run into an issue where everyone knows you, as ST, are gunning for the mage all the time. More importantly, that the mage is a far bigger target or threat to the antagonist. Everyone else essentially becomes small fish. Some people may be okay with that.


Again, if you keep all the capabilities the same, you could probably stand to keep the mage in line by making it far more costly to do cool stuff. Mages are cool and all, but the abyss is no joke. Neither is running out of mana and/or willpower because most, or all, of your abilities require resource expenditure.

You, as the mage, might be left as a benchwarmer: either recovering from resource expenditure or biding your time for the best play.


Historically, being squishy (or susceptible to being caught off guard) or running out of mana sit among the highest concerns for mages in various media.

Add to that the threat of the abyss, and possibly the ire of other mages (Guardians) for being careless, and you may have the tools to limit mages already within your grasp.

[Mrmdubois]

Without changing actual rules the best way to keep Mages in check is to add complications from multiple sources. The more balls a Mage has to juggle the less likely he is to try stealing the show from non-Mage characters, and the more likely he is to let those characters handle their areas of expertise.

Even in just a straight Mage game this is the best way to prevent Mages from just one-shotting their problems that so many STs complain about.

[totalgit]

I see that a common opinion is that Mages are overpowered compared to the other splats. Is this ok or will it seriously unbalance the game if mages are allowed to stomp around the World of Darkness as the most powerful beings around. Should there be some ways to bring them in line with everyone else? Here are some ideas that I just brainstormed

1/ Don't allow rotes so easily with some really powerful spells, psychic domination comes to mind. Maybe allow the rote later on with learning, but not readily available at character creation
2/ Don't allow 3 dice with a willpower point when casting a spell
3/ Allow other supernaturals to use supernatural tolerance to resist spells
4/ Don't allow 1 free potency if potency is the nature of the spell ( I recall a rule about that)

Just some ideas, what are your thoughts?

No to all. What are you trying to bring them in line with? Other splats? Tough. Crossovers are the problem, just dont do them.

3) basically would mean the mage cant do anything, the reason supernatural tolerance isnt used to resist spells is mages have stupidly low dicepools once they have to add spellfactors to spells.
combined with your other suggestions that are all about the mage loosing dice, then you arnt nerfing mages to bring them in line with others you are outright curb stomping them into oblivion.

You dont sit down to a d&d game and let one person play a character from rifts do you. Just because the other ST games use the same system doesnt make it fine to crossover games.

You say its going to seriously unbalance "the" game? Mages arnt unbalanced in the only game that being a mage matters in, IE: Mage.

If you are wanting to run a X splat game, make all your players play the X splat, dont dilute the themes of the game just for that one special snowflake who wants to play Y, its usually never worth it.

Also: 4chan is that way ---->

[nofather]

3) basically would mean the mage cant do anything, the reason supernatural tolerance isnt used to resist spells is mages have stupidly low dicepools once they have to add spellfactors to spells.

That would only be the case if mages were targeting people with very high Supernatural Tolerance. Starting characters are going to have higher Withstand ratings than Tolerance. And as you increase Gnosis your spellcasting dicepool rises appropriately. Since 'their' Supernatural Tolerance caps out at 10, and a mage's 'natural' dicepool at 15, not counting archmastery, with yantras you can go way over the top.

[totalgit]

That would only be the case if mages were targeting people with very high Supernatural Tolerance. Starting characters are going to have higher Withstand ratings than Tolerance. And as you increase Gnosis your spellcasting dicepool rises appropriately. Since 'their' Supernatural Tolerance caps out at 10, and a mage's 'natural' dicepool at 15, not counting archmastery, with yantras you can go way over the top.

Does the person mean adding supernatural tolerance to withstand? Since not doing so is indeed helping mages at the lower end of the scale, even so at the higher end of the scale it still means needing -10 or more dice for potency. I thought they meant adding supernatural tolerance to withstand but its still bad if not, even a supernatural tolerance of 4 is probably more withstand that a mage would normally meet and -8 to beat it. Remember each point of resistance is -2 dice that soon stacks up faster than the mage gains dice

Supernatural tolerance 10 vs max gnosis + arcana of 15 means they are -5 dicepool without spellfactors..

[Elfive]

Supernatural Tolerance is very specifically not added to withstand, so presumably there is a good reason for that.

But yeah, I don't think these hacks would work. Rotes aren't all that important, Buffing withstand would just increase the reliance on praxes, and generally speaking a mage's versatility is the issue, not their dice pools.

[nofather]

But yeah, I don't think these hacks would work. Rotes aren't all that important, Buffing withstand would just increase the reliance on praxes, and generally speaking a mage's versatility is the issue, not their dice pools.

Yes, you would likely want to limit versatility if you had some problem with 'bringing them in line.' Something like blocking inferior arcana off entirely, or making so the untrained limit is a hard limit rather than a minor experience increase with an in-world speedbump.

[Mrmdubois]

Or just up your game as an ST instead of relying on a mechanics crutch. It's not really crossover if one splat has to weaken itself to be "acceptable."