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  • Attainments are not Supernal magic, but they are magic in the sense that the Prime purview would still cover them.

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    • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
      If fae Contracts can be revealed with it (by adding Fate, but still), I don’t see why Attainments wouldn’t be. Especially ones based on spells.
      Sounds reasonable.

      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
      By the Reach option, I think you mean Counterspell? I feel dispellation spells ought to work on Attainments, and Counterspell not, but this is pure guess.
      That is indeed what I meant - however, by RAW on Page 199, Attainments are immune to countering or dispelling. You can put out the fires caused by a fire-starter Legacy, but you can't directly stop them from igniting flamable objects in the first place. It does say that a Greater Utility Attainment "may offer the ability to counter all supernatural powers of a kind, including the Legacy Attainment", which I think means a Legacy with Dispel Magic or Supernal Dispellation as their Adept-slot powers can banish Attainments.


      Monkish Asexual.

      I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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      • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
        Sounds reasonable.


        That is indeed what I meant - however, by RAW on Page 199, Attainments are immune to countering or dispelling. You can put out the fires caused by a fire-starter Legacy, but you can't directly stop them from igniting flamable objects in the first place. It does say that a Greater Utility Attainment "may offer the ability to counter all supernatural powers of a kind, including the Legacy Attainment", which I think means a Legacy with Dispel Magic or Supernal Dispellation as their Adept-slot powers can banish Attainments.
        Missed the page 199 thing. Then RAW is that, simple.

        The part about Greater Utility Attainment likely refers to only Arcanum Attainments, not Legacy Attainments, though.


        MtAw Homebrew:
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        • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
          That is indeed what I meant - however, by RAW on Page 199, Attainments are immune to countering or dispelling. You can put out the fires caused by a fire-starter Legacy, but you can't directly stop them from igniting flamable objects in the first place. It does say that a Greater Utility Attainment "may offer the ability to counter all supernatural powers of a kind, including the Legacy Attainment", which I think means a Legacy with Dispel Magic or Supernal Dispellation as their Adept-slot powers can banish Attainments.
          A power that counters a specific effect rather than a type of magic can counter Legacy Attainments. This includes the Greater Utility Attainments (the 4 dot Arcana Attainments). For example, a mage with Death 4+ can use Inviolate Soul to enter a Clash of Wills with a reaper who attempts to steal the mage's soul with a Legacy Attainment.


          Writer for Bloodlines: The Ageless on STV
          Some other stuff I've done: Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • So, Prime. Today I’m curious about some of the more out there potential uses of the Arcanum. Mostly, I’m interested whether Prime alone can do something, even if it’s not very well. I’ve asked some of these questions before, but my posts were much messier back then, and I didn’t get a lot of responses. I’m also curious if those responses changed.

            Is it reasonable to say that Prime Veiling can obscure symbolism of, or from a subject? For example, can one hide the symbolism of a stop sign so it appears to be gibberish? Can one extend that spoken language, replicating the Curse of Bable?

            Is it reasonable to use Prime Veiling to hide a subject from just Sleepers, Sleepwalkers, or Mages?

            Is it reasonable to use Prime on someone who has a nimbus tilt already on them to intensify the tilt into a related condition?

            Is it reasonable to use Prime to heal others, through Pattern Restoration? Either by projecting their own Pattern Restoration, or by using another Mage’s Pattern Restoration? (Technically, Prime can give Mage sight to others. Would this be similar?)

            Edit: I had some more right after I walked away. Sorry.

            Is it reasonable to use Prime Ruling to change the Nimbus tilt to whatever?

            Is it reasonable to Prime Compelling to inflict one’s Nimbus tilt as a spell?
            Last edited by TempleBuilder; 12-21-2022, 03:08 PM.


            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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            • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
              So, Prime. Today I’m curious about some of the more out there potential uses of the Arcanum. Mostly, I’m interested whether Prime alone can do something, even if it’s not very well. I’ve asked some of these questions before, but my posts were much messier back then, and I didn’t get a lot of responses. I’m also curious if those responses changed.
              Largely off the cuff, with the usual disclaimers that follow from such:


              Is it reasonable to say that Prime Veiling can obscure symbolism of, or from a subject? For example, can one hide the symbolism of a stop sign so it appears to be gibberish? Can one extend that spoken language, replicating the Curse of Bable?
              Yeah, this sounds doable. Conceptual inversions of Prime 2 Invisible Runes and Prime 2 Words of Truth.

              Is it reasonable to use Prime Veiling to hide a subject from just Sleepers, Sleepwalkers, or Mages?
              Mmm... Veiling has two uses. One is "hide subject that falls under the Arcanum's purview from general scrutiny." (Matter 2 Hidden Hoard) With this, Prime could hide something magical from Sleepers, and perhaps Sleepwalkers with a Reach. But Prime couldn't hide something general from general Sleepers/Sleepwalkers with this alone. Well, maybe Yes with enough Reach? Or maybe savants of the Veiling Practice among the Rapt knows something… (Also, we gotta find some way to balance Dissonance.)

              Veiling's other use is "hide general subject from phenomenon that falls under the Arcanum's purview." (Matter 2 Machine Invisibility) With this, Prime could hide something general from mages, especially (or only?) their Mage Sight.

              Is it reasonable to use Prime on someone who has a nimbus tilt already on them to intensify the tilt into a related condition?
              Sounds like Prime Perfecting.

              Is it reasonable to use Prime to heal others, through Pattern Restoration? Either by projecting their own Pattern Restoration, or by using another Mage’s Pattern Restoration? (Technically, Prime can give Mage sight to others. Would this be similar?)
              Nah. Pattern Restoration is largely Life stuff (as Life's utility Attainment suggests). Maybe a Legacy Attainment could allow a mage to use Pattern Restoration at others? (I remember doing something like that in one of my homebrews.) Prime 4 Apocalypse is less about giving Mage Template Features to somebody else, and more about "BEHOLD!"

              Edit: I had some more right after I walked away. Sorry.

              Is it reasonable to use Prime Ruling to change the Nimbus tilt to whatever?

              Is it reasonable to Prime Compelling to inflict one’s Nimbus tilt as a spell?
              I'd put "change Nimbus Tilt that's already here" at Weaving.

              Changing what Nimbus Tilt a mage imposes is likely Patterning, given how it's something fundamental enough to require a Gnosis level up.

              Imposing your Nimbus Tilt without flaring your Immediate Nimbus is likely Ruling. Imposing someone else's Nimbus Tilt likely requires Combining this with Prime 2 Nimbus Forgery.
              Last edited by 21C Hermit; 12-22-2022, 12:01 AM. Reason: Further thoughts


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              • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                Largely off the cuff, with the usual disclaimers that follow from such:
                That's fine, I realize I'm asking some out there questions anyways. Thank you for answering.


                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Yeah, this sounds doable. Conceptual inversions of Prime 2 Invisible Runes and Prime 2 Words of Truth.
                Cool.


                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Mmm... Veiling has two uses. One is "hide subject that falls under the Arcanum's purview from general scrutiny." (Matter 2 Hidden Hoard) With this, Prime could hide something magical from Sleepers, and perhaps Sleepwalkers with a Reach. But Prime couldn't hide something general from general Sleepers/Sleepwalkers with this alone. Well, maybe Yes with enough Reach? Or maybe savants of the Veiling Practice among the Rapt knows something… (Also, we gotta find some way to balance Dissonance.)
                Would this be enough to hide a Mage from sleepers? Seems like not.

                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Veiling's other use is "hide general subject from phenomenon that falls under the Arcanum's purview." (Matter 2 Machine Invisibility) With this, Prime could hide something general from mages, especially (or only?) their Mage Sight.
                Huh. That seems useful.


                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Sounds like Prime Perfecting.
                Cool.

                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Nah. Pattern Restoration is largely Life stuff (as Life's utility Attainment suggests). Maybe a Legacy Attainment could allow a mage to use Pattern Restoration at others? (I remember doing something like that in one of my homebrews.) Prime 4 Apocalypse is less about giving Mage Template Features to somebody else, and more about "BEHOLD!"
                I see. That's disappointing. That seems really weird to me, but it seems consistent with what I've heard before. So, what about triggering it in other Mages, and paying the costs for them? Is that possible in your opinion?

                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                I'd put "change Nimbus Tilt that's already here" at Weaving.
                That seems fair.

                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Changing what Nimbus Tilt a mage imposes is likely Patterning, given how it's something fundamental enough to require a Gnosis level up.
                Really? So you can change your tilt to someone else's with Prime 2, but you have to wait until Prime 4 to change it how you like?

                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Imposing your Nimbus Tilt without flaring your Immediate Nimbus is likely Ruling. Imposing someone else's Nimbus Tilt likely requires Combining this with Prime 2 Nimbus Forgery.
                What if you had the Mage in question present? Could you force their Nimbus tilt on someone else?

                If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could one attach their Nimbus tilt to the comprehension of symbolism, like reading a book, with Prime Weaving?


                To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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                • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post

                  I see. That's disappointing. That seems really weird to me, but it seems consistent with what I've heard before. So, what about triggering it in other Mages, and paying the costs for them? Is that possible in your opinion?
                  I’d like to say No, but we already had spells affecting things like Spell Control (Prime 4 Primal Transfer), so Maybe Yes?

                  (Though I said Pattern Restoration is Life, this particular trick may be Prime, in line with Primal Transfer.)

                  Really? So you can change your tilt to someone else's with Prime 2, but you have to wait until Prime 4 to change it how you like?
                  Eh, Prime 2 Nimbus Forgery requires you to do a bunch legwork and then restricts you to copying only the one you Scrutinized, while our hypothetical Prime 4 spell would skip all the legwork *and* could get us a never-seen-before Nimbus effect, so it seems fair enough.


                  What if you had the Mage in question present? Could you force their Nimbus tilt on someone else?
                  It… sounds doable with some Reach, perhaps? Gonna have to do the actual Creative Thaumaturgy tinkering to work that one out, buuuuut I’m busy right now

                  If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could one attach their Nimbus tilt to the comprehension of symbolism, like reading a book, with Prime Weaving?
                  Not sure what this one means. Something like a basilisk, except you get hammered with a Nimbus Tilt instead of a spell? If so, it sounds like one of the Imbue-variant spells.


                  MtAw Homebrew:
                  Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                  New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                  • Several questions about different topics:
                    1. If in-game I create a Perfected Material, do I need to buy the merit with experiences?
                      Example, I am a Moros, I have a small coin made of lead, and I spend the time to make it pass 10 times in and out if Twilight (less than 2 minutes if I make a couple of small portals) making it Perfected Lead, do I need to buy the merit? Do I gain it for "free"?
                    2. How much content (and distribution) does an item need to count as Magical Tool made of a Perfected Material?
                      For example, how much (and where should it go) Perfected silver does the cellphone of my Acanthus Free Councilor need to have to count as being a perfected Magical tool?​
                    3. What is the main Arcana of "Malleable Thorns" (Fate •• + Mind ••)?
                      By main I ask the one that when growing grants free reach. I assume Fate from the context, but it is not clear.
                    4. "Shifting Sands" do you spend the spell duration in the past and that's it? Or do you time travel and start anew?
                      The spell has Potency primary, if I reach to roll back 1 scene, but do not apply successes to Duration, do I travel 1 scene and then I spend Duration/turns there? Or since this has an effect that can be lasting, Duration is not relevant and I just time traveled one scene to try new things from there?
                    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 01-17-2023, 09:27 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
                      Several questions about different topics:
                      1. If in-game I create a Perfected Material, do I need to buy the merit with experiences?
                        Example, I am a Moros, I have a small coin made of lead, and I spend the time to make it pass 10 times in and out if Twilight (less than 2 minutes if I make a couple of small portals) making it Perfected Lead, do I need to buy the merit? Do I gain it for "free"?
                      2. How much content (and distribution) does an item need to count as Magical Tool made of a Perfected Material?
                        For example, how much (and where should it go) Perfected silver does the cellphone of my Acanthus Free Councilor need to have to count as being a perfected Magical tool?​
                      3. What is the main Arcana of "Malleable Thorns" (Fate •• + Mind ••)?
                        By main I ask the one that when growing grants free reach. I assume Fate from the context, but it is not clear.
                      4. "Shield of Chronos" do you spend the spell duration in the past and that's it? Or do you time travel and start anew?
                        The spell has Potency primary, if I reach to roll back 1 scene, but do not apply successes to Duration, do I travel 1 scene and then I spend Duration/turns there? Or since this has an effect that can be lasting, Duration is not relevant and I just time traveled one scene to try new things from there?
                      1. ST's call, but rule of thumb is that no, you don't have to buy Merit dots, but it isn't covered by Sanctity of Merits. So you have the item, but it might get lost, stolen, or destroyed without your approval.

                      2. I'd rule "majority" - so more than half of the structure, or at least a symbolically significant portion. For the cellphone, the casing would be a good portion.

                      3. I... want to say Mind, since the Hedge is largely psychoactive, but the general structure of multi-arcana spells in SoS looks like whichever Arcana is listed first is the "primary" Arcana. On the other hand, it would probably make sense to say that you only get free Reach for the LOWER of the two Arcana, in situations like this.

                      4. ...Do you mean Shifting Sands? Shield of Chronos is a Veiling effect that occludes the subject from temporal scrying - say I cast it on myself for the next hour, anyone trying to use Postcognition on my timeline thereafer would be unable to view that hour, and attepts to foretell me with Divination or Prophecy during that hour would be stymed.

                      For Shifting Sands, you start the scene over. Anyone looking at them under Time Mage Sight will see the temporal distortion until you catch up to where you were when you cast the spell, but the effect is otherwise Lasting (I think).


                      Tangentially related question to the Perfected Metals - would it be reasonable to add a Reach effect to Ex Nihilo to create Perfected materials? Say, use it to create a spear made of Siderite, or Dumanium? And if so, how much Reach should it cost?
                      Last edited by Cauthon; 01-18-2023, 12:05 AM. Reason: Spelling


                      Monkish Asexual.

                      I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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                      • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

                        1. ST's call, but rule of thumb is that no, you don't have to buy Merit dots, but it isn't covered by Sanctity of Merits. So you have the item, but it might get lost, stolen, or destroyed without your approval.

                        2. I'd rule "majority" - so more than half of the structure, or at least a symblically significant portion. For the cellphone, the casing would be a good portion.

                        3. I... want to say Mind, since the Hedge is largely psychoactive, but the general structure of multi-arcana spells in SoS looks like whichever Arcana is listed first is the "primary" Arcana. On the other hand, it would probably make sense to say that you only get free Reach for the LOWER of the two Arcana, in situations like this.

                        4. ...Do you mean Shifting Sands? Shield of Chronos is a Veiling effect that occludes the subject from temporal scrying - say I cast it on myself for the next hour, anyone trying to use Postcognition on my timeline thereafer would be unable to view that hour, and attepts to foretell me with Divination or Prophecy during that hour would be stymed.

                        For Shifting Sands, you start the scene over. Anyone looking at them under Time Mage Sight will see the temporal distortion until you catch up to where you were when you cast the spell, but the effect is otherwise Lasting (I think).


                        Tangentially related question to the Perfected Metals - would it be reasonable to add a Reach effect to Ex Nihilo to create Perfected materials? Say, use it to create a spear made of Siderite, or Dumanium? And if so, how much Reach should it cost?


                        Thanks for all the answers, and yes it was Shifting Sands for question 4. My bad.

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                        • Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post



                          Thanks for all the answers, and yes it was Shifting Sands for question 4. My bad.
                          For shifting sands, you'd go back X scenes for the duration of the shifting sands spell (which if it was longer than X scenes would mean you'd catch up to the present.) Any changes become lasting when you return to the present.

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                          • Two questions:

                            1. Would it be reasonable to add a Reach effect to Ex Nihilo to create Perfected materials? Say, use it to create a spear made of Siderite, or Dumanium? And if so, how much Reach should it cost?

                            2. Transmission is a Duration-primary spell. I assume that, by default, any alterations you make with it are Lasting in that, say, a cloud upload broadcast you altered to say one thing wouldn't revert to the original transmission once the spell ends. Is the spell meant to be adding an inherent ability to the target for the duration, allowing them to alter signals at will? Or do you need to cast the spell every time you make a change, and specificly are targeting the desired signal?

                            Or, more simply, does Transmission target the signals, or the editors? ​


                            Monkish Asexual.

                            I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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                            • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                              Two questions:

                              1. Would it be reasonable to add a Reach effect to Ex Nihilo to create Perfected materials? Say, use it to create a spear made of Siderite, or Dumanium? And if so, how much Reach should it cost?
                              For perfected Materials in and of themselves…I wouldn’t say you need a reach. They are natural materials with unusual properties. However, I would assume they require a mana to make.

                              Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                              2. Transmission is a Duration-primary spell. I assume that, by default, any alterations you make with it are Lasting in that, say, a cloud upload broadcast you altered to say one thing wouldn't revert to the original transmission once the spell ends. Is the spell meant to be adding an inherent ability to the target for the duration, allowing them to alter signals at will? Or do you need to cast the spell every time you make a change, and specificly are targeting the desired signal?

                              Or, more simply, does Transmission target the signals, or the editors? ​
                              So the only way I can imagine this working is like a filter placed in the path of a flashlight beam at a particular moment. Let’s say you want to hijack the air waves to give someone a commercial at that moment. You would need to know the direction of the radio tower and place a wall that would filter the light that would reach the device…or you could wrap it around the device and not care about the direction. You could also wrap it around the radio, and accept that everyone is getting a commercial break. If you end the spell too early…everyone goes back to their regularly scheduled programming, and are probably confused. I don’t think you are giving anything an extra property, though I will note that light technically changes as it bends around objects, just like all other types of waves. Perhaps the spell exploits this property to actually change the light.

                              Edit: for clarity.
                              Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-18-2023, 02:05 AM.


                              To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                              So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                                So the only way I can imagine this working is like a filter placed in the path of a flashlight beam at a particular moment. Let’s say you want to hijack the air waves to give someone a commercial at that moment. You would need to know the direction of the radio tower and place a wall that would filter the light that would reach the device…or you could wrap it around the device and not care about the direction. You could also wrap it around the radio, and accept that everyone is getting a commercial break. If you end the spell too early…everyone goes back to their regularly scheduled programming, and are probably confused. I don’t think you are giving anything an extra property, though I will note that light technically changes as it bends around objects, just like all other types of waves. Perhaps the spell exploits this property to actually change the light.

                                Edit: for clarity.
                                I suppose the angle I'm looking at it from is from the perspective of a Mage who already has Tune In cast on themselves. They can perceive data and signals all around them, and Transmission allows you to manipulate those signals. A Matter-Life Mage can give themselves the communicative properties of a cellphone, but I'm a bit confused as to whether a Forces Mage can do something similar without having to constantly spam Transmission. (I'd imagine you could Creative Thaumaturgy-up a Forces spell that allows you to be your own cellphone, I'm mostly trying to work out if you can do it already with published spells.)
                                Last edited by Cauthon; 01-18-2023, 02:15 AM.


                                Monkish Asexual.

                                I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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