How Do You Determine the Local Spirit Community?

[Eunomiac]

As the player of a Spirit mage, I recently inflicted a rather hefty narrative dilemma upon my Storyteller, one that I (were I in her place) wouldn't have known how to handle: An emergency "no holds barred" casting of Spirit Summons with eight Reach, calling up to forty spirits of Rank 4 or lower, commanding them to protect an NPC, with a duration of one week and setting the Open Condition on an area the size of a shopping mall. The limitations, of course, being sensory range and the fact that I didn't spend a ninth Reach to summon across the Gauntlet (so only spirits in Twilight would respond).

Without demanding that the Storyteller have a clear understanding of the spirit ecology in every possible location us itinerant mages might find ourselves, are there any guidelines to suggest how many spirits would respond, how powerful they would be, and the efficacy of their Numina, Influences, and Manifestations in such a situation? (Obviously, I'm under no delusion that anywhere near forty spirits would respond... but at the same time, I have absolutely no idea if the number should be "zero" or "thirty-nine" or any idea whatsoever in between!)

[Johnny Awesome]

I would probably do something like Rank 1 x 5, Rank 2 x 3, Rank 3 x 2, Rank 4 x 1 = 11 Spirits. Then I would work backwards based on the Resonance of the area. Most powerful resonance has the Rank 4 Spirit etc.... That's assuming there could even be a Rank 4 Spirit given the area. The example in the book of such a Spirit is "The spirit of a city’s principal river".

I'm new at Spirits, but I would also likely keep in mind that most of them probably feed on different types of Resonance. If two Spirits of different Rank want the same Resonance, it's fairly likely that the higher Rank Spirit would consume the lower ranked one.

[Mrmdubois]

Imo, this is one of those things that’s heavily up to ST fiat, but I’d keep in mind that spirits in Twilight are pretty rare and I’d also take into account the strength of the Gauntlet and if any Verges are within the area of the spell as a context factor for how many spirits might have managed to leave the Shadow and exist in Twilight locally.

[Johnny Awesome]

Yeah. The numbers I quoted were high. Even one of Rank 1-3 for a total of 3 would be a decent number on this side of the Gauntlet from what people have been suggesting lately.

But this might be something we can give some suggested mechanics to help STs, so here's my stab at it:

Total Ranks = 5 + 5*(# of Loci/Verges) - Gauntlet Strength

Distribution of Ranks -> Rank 1 - 50%, Rank 2 - 30%, Rank 3 - 15%, Rank 4 - 5%

Then you have something to go on that you can use ST fiat to tweak up or down depending on the story and circumstances.

So a dense urban area with no Loci/Verges has nothing on this side of the Gauntlet. Whereas a Wilderness containing a Verge might have 8 Ranks worth of spirits (4 Rank 1, 2 Rank 2, 1 Rank 2 or 3).

It's just a guideline when you're in a pinch.

[Scarlet Witch]

Yeah it depends on the setting. If no one considers the local area to have a spirit problem, you'd be lucky to even get a single rank 2 spirit. However, in my setting that would be an apocalyptic amount of magic because my setting has more spirits invading the physical world than any mages or werewolves can deal with. Beshilu problem.

[Eunomiac]

But this might be something we can give some suggested mechanics to help STs, so here's my stab at it:

Total Ranks = 5 + 5*(# of Loci/Verges) - Gauntlet Strength

Distribution of Ranks -> Rank 1 - 50%, Rank 2 - 30%, Rank 3 - 15%, Rank 4 - 5%

Then you have something to go on that you can use ST fiat to tweak up or down depending on the story and circumstances.

This is exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking for.

What does everyone else think of this as a general "metric" for a conventional World of Darkness setting?

[Flinty]

This is exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking for.

What does everyone else think of this as a general "metric" for a conventional World of Darkness setting?

Far too much. Unless there is a spirit infestation for one reason or another a regular shopping mall might have one, maybe two spirits in twilight. Or maybe none. Spirits in twilight are not that common.

Also just fyi: A spirit who'd be compelled by the spell to act against its nature (including specifically abandoning a manifestation such as a fetter) would get a clash of wills against the spell I'd think. Of course if you use the raw dicepools for spirit clashes that is not as much of an issue as they are a joke.

[Malus]

Imo, this is one of those things that’s heavily up to ST fiat, but I’d keep in mind that spirits in Twilight are pretty rare and I’d also take into account the strength of the Gauntlet and if any Verges are within the area of the spell as a context factor for how many spirits might have managed to leave the Shadow and exist in Twilight locally.

Not only that, you know what type of spirit are regularly on twilight? Those urging people, if not outright possessing them.

[Pale_Crusader]

As the player of a Spirit mage, I recently inflicted a rather hefty narrative dilemma upon my Storyteller, one that I (were I in her place) wouldn't have known how to handle: An emergency "no holds barred" casting of Spirit Summons with eight Reach, calling up to forty spirits of Rank 4 or lower, commanding them to protect an NPC, with a duration of one week and setting the Open Condition on an area the size of a shopping mall. The limitations, of course, being sensory range and the fact that I didn't spend a ninth Reach to summon across the Gauntlet (so only spirits in Twilight would respond).

Without demanding that the Storyteller have a clear understanding of the spirit ecology in every possible location us itinerant mages might find ourselves, are there any guidelines to suggest how many spirits would respond, how powerful they would be, and the efficacy of their Numina, Influences, and Manifestations in such a situation? (Obviously, I'm under no delusion that anywhere near forty spirits would respond... but at the same time, I have absolutely no idea if the number should be "zero" or "thirty-nine" or any idea whatsoever in between!)

Depending on if the area has Forsaken werewolves, Pure werewolves, or a combination between the those two groups that will strongly determine if any or how many spirits are on material world side of the Gauntlet. Did the mage bother to look first? Because since it is sensory range the spell should summon exactly how many spirits he sees, hears, and possibly touches, period. Possibly he was hearing some car spirits in traffic he'd assumed were physical cars, perhaps he sees a person who is spirit fettered or possessed without realizing, likely an addiction spirit that looks like the smoke from their ever present cigarette. Barring him sensing spirits he was unaware of, he summons nothing. I'd give the character an occult roll to figure out the reason he summoned nothing if the summoning was an impulsive action or done without plan, otherwise I'd give him an occult roll before even casting the spell to realize sensory summoning spells only summon what you can sense.

As a side note:
Succeeding so that many spirits within twilight gather around a target is a great way to ensure if there is a werewolf pack in the area they will investigate and likely call a Sacred Hunt on all those spirits AND the reason they are seemingly invading the physical world... Likely the person being protected will be part of that Sacred Hunt, I mean picture it from the Uratha's point of view, you'd likely assume that person was bringing the spirits through and there is a lot of Hunt now, question later mentality in many packs. I mean imagine what a PC pack would do, it's terrible for the person so "protected"... Likely for the summoner too because the hisil is full of snitches peering through the Gauntlet. So it'd be in the mage's best interest if the number wasn't significantly or threateningly large as to escape the notice of the predators which stalk the spirit world and its boundary. Also besides werewolves there are spirits more powerful than rank 4 on the hisil side of things and they pose their own danger when affecting their courts/supply-lines/food-chains.

[Mrmdubois]

Werewolves only matter if you’re doing crossover. Inside the game line of Mage they’re not a consideration.

[Poseur]

Werewolves only matter if you’re doing crossover. Inside the game line of Mage they’re not a consideration.

Why? I've never played a crossover campaign but other splats are always present and contribute to the setting and sometimes the story. Mage is a part of the Chronicles of Darkness, so is other splats. So if you choose to have them there, they make perfect sense, it's even considered the default. If they are not a part of the chronicle, then that's fine as well, but surely it's a more mage-centric world, lacking some elements considered "canon".

[Eunomiac]

Regarding the precautions or preparation taken by my character: No, none at all. This was an emergency situation that was very much desperate (and resulted in a huge Paradox roll and Wisdom loss).

Far too much. Unless there is a spirit infestation for one reason or another a regular shopping mall might have one, maybe two spirits in twilight. Or maybe none. Spirits in twilight are not that common.

This seems to be in line with Johnny Awesome's formula. Absent places of power, the number of available Ranks is 5 - Gauntlet Strength, or 2 Ranks, total, in the area I cast the spell. And I'd consider that a maximum number, perhaps subject to another random roll to see what percentage of that maximum actually existed.

Anyways, it does seem like there's a lack of clarity in the rules on the number of spirits that would be in Twilight. The rules mention a few additional motivations (e.g. escaping from predators), but the amount of such spirits is left entirely undefined.

Also just fyi: A spirit who'd be compelled by the spell to act against its nature (including specifically abandoning a manifestation such as a fetter) would get a clash of wills against the spell I'd think. Of course if you use the raw dicepools for spirit clashes that is not as much of an issue as they are a joke.

That's a good point. (Though given the setting and the nature of the command, I don't think there would have been many for whom the command would have gone against their self-interest.)

[Eunomiac]

Why? I've never played a crossover campaign but other splats are always present and contribute to the setting and sometimes the story. Mage is a part of the Chronicles of Darkness, so is other splats. So if you choose to have them there, they make perfect sense, it's even considered the default. If they are not a part of the chronicle, then that's fine as well, but surely it's a more mage-centric world, lacking some elements considered "canon".

Although I agree with you in principle, this particular game I'm in is a homebrew setting with sweeping changes to mages and the way they relate to the world. So, while there may be werewolves or vampires out there, I kind of doubt it (and if there were, they'd be radically different from typical CoD creatures)

[Satchel]

Anyways, it does seem like there's a lack of clarity in the rules on the number of spirits that would be in Twilight.

There's a "lack of clarity" on that front because the existing rules are "spirits who haven't got a stable Manifestation Condition to hold onto will generally wind up dragged back across the Gauntlet within the day, and most Manifestation Conditions apart from Fetter are temporary without magical intervention."

Unless there's a locus or two in that shopping mall, you're most likely to attract spirits who've attached themselves to people and animals, barring some very obvious forms of desperate predation behind the scenes from a Materialized spirit or a body-hopping Possession-fiend (either of which could well be the case, but neither of which is likely to be the assumed default state of a shopping mall in your setting).

Basically the strongest contender without an established lockout of the concept is that you'd see up to a moderate handful of Jagglings who already haunt the space getting roped into protecting this character within the bounds of the mall, and depending on how important this mall is to the city and the wider world those spirits might pay fealty to the spirit of the mall proper or they might be marauding lords of the shopping season or they might be cast-out fugitives from a neighboring domain trying to scrape together the resources to return to glory. You don't so much need a full ecology as a general understanding of what the specific spirits are and how they might relate to the surrounding setting.

[Aristarkos]

Why? I've never played a crossover campaign but other splats are always present and contribute to the setting and sometimes the story. Mage is a part of the Chronicles of Darkness, so is other splats. So if you choose to have them there, they make perfect sense, it's even considered the default. If they are not a part of the chronicle, then that's fine as well, but surely it's a more mage-centric world, lacking some elements considered "canon".

As far as I know there is no "canon" in Cofd, it is up to the storyteller if werewolves would be present or not, as well as any of the other supernatural entities of other gamelines. That doesn't mean you did not have a good point though, if werewolves indeed are present in the game they would be a great concern.