Musings about mechanics for the fate arcanum

[MovingMind]

So i was doing some thinking and tinkering about the Fate arcanum (while being gameless), so I threw together a mechanic intended for spells that come to pass at some time in the future; such as "Quantum flux", "Shifting the Odds" and "Strings of Fate"

Instead of using the normal duration chart; flip the chart upside down; and the effect of the spell happens at the end of the new duration. It is a lot easier for things to fall in your favor if there is a lot of time for the events to actually align. With reach spent on advanced duration, it happens improbably quickly.

One year | Basic success
One month | -2
One week | -4
One day | -6
One scene | -8
One minute | -10

Advanced
10 turns | Basic success
5 turns | -2
3 turns | -4
2 turns | -6
1 turn | -8

Another mechanic idea i had is a chart similar to Temporal sympathy, but corresponding to probability, and used to Withstand fate spells. This one i'm still quite vague about (didn't develop it much...)
I'm leaning towards something like this; the advantage this brings is that you can put a clause such as what is present in the sympathy charts, making the highest level untouchable except to Level 5 spells. It probably needs more details and granularity though.
0 - Random events
3 - biased towards success or failure
4 - slight chance of happening (guessing passwords maybe?)
5 - Nearly Impossible or Nearly certain events (Miracle level shenanigans).


I also have some vague ideas about Using a persistent condition that changes based on the target's action for Divine intervention and using a description similar to prophecy for Chaos mastery, but that's just up in the air...

[Vent0]

For probability, I'd go
0 - biased toward success (but not assured or extremely likely)
1 - random chance (actual chance is unknown)
2 - 50/50
3 - biased toward failure (but success isn't surprising)
4 - very unlikely, but not "impossible".
5 - Miracle level impossibility.

(1 and 2 could be swapped, easily)

[Thorbes]

Very interesting take on it. It does make sense for changes being more difficult the more immediate you want them to be and the idea of the "probability Withstand"is very ingenious.

[21C Hermit]

Ooh, this looks fun. Even if it’s not for Mage, it’s still something to make use of for destiny-shaping powers.

[Mrmdubois]

How would this interact with things like placing Tilts in time constrained conditions?

[Thorbes]

You need to be very skillful/powerful or lucky to pull it out, and use Reach.

[Mrmdubois]

Yeah, I’m not sure I like that aspect of it, though I do find the house rule being proposed here interesting.

[MovingMind]

For probability, I'd go
0 - biased toward success (but not assured or extremely likely)
1 - random chance (actual chance is unknown)
2 - 50/50
3 - biased toward failure (but success isn't surprising)
4 - very unlikely, but not "impossible".
5 - Miracle level impossibility.

(1 and 2 could be swapped, easily)

I am finding it hard to word this in the right way.

I would put your 0 (truly random) and 2 (50/50) on the same level: a situation where any outcome is equally likely. 50/50 odds is just a special case where the number of possible options is 2.

What about this:
0 = Equal odds or better
1 = Less than equal odds
2 = unlikely to happen (>5%)
3 = very unlikely to happen (>1%)
4 = Only theoretically possible (approaches 0%)
5 = Statistical impossibility (i.e. requires multiple events rated 4 to happen simultaneously in order to have a chance of occurring)

Level 5 improbability must be done with making/unmaking.

Lucky Number and Chaos Mastery would have a withstand of 4 on this chart.

An interesting possibility would be a spell that makes an event more or less likely to happen by changing the Likeliness of an event.

How would this interact with things like placing Tilts in time constrained conditions?

As i wrote in the first post, the delayed onset chart was mostly intended for three particular spells; where the effect takes place within 24 hours (or a week of casting). If i were to apply it to other types of spells, i would make the resulting Tilt/Condition lasting; you'd have to recover from the tilt or resolve it the normal way. After all, the Magic part only brought the circumstances where it happened into play; the effect itself is not magical.
However, i haven't really thought about using it this way.

[thenate]

Seems that Potency is the spell factor that should apply to your chart unless you want to create a new Spell Factor. Duration should retain its meaning, methinks. I do like this notion, so I'll consider it a bit and see what bubbles up.

[Eric Zawadzki]

So i was doing some thinking and tinkering about the Fate arcanum (while being gameless), so I threw together a mechanic intended for spells that come to pass at some time in the future; such as "Quantum flux", "Shifting the Odds" and "Strings of Fate"

Instead of using the normal duration chart; flip the chart upside down; and the effect of the spell happens at the end of the new duration. It is a lot easier for things to fall in your favor if there is a lot of time for the events to actually align. With reach spent on advanced duration, it happens improbably quickly.

One year | Basic success
One month | -2
One week | -4
One day | -6
One scene | -8
One minute | -10

Advanced
10 turns | Basic success
5 turns | -2
3 turns | -4
2 turns | -6
1 turn | -8

Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!

*ahem*

So, I wrote a "Conjunction" spell factor to handle this in Fate, but it got cut both because of word count limits and because at the extreme end of Advanced Conjunction, it strained credulity even for Awakened magic. (My playtesters joked about the perpetually annoyed wizard cop who went around using Space magic to ensure chance meetings between people on opposite ends of the world drawn together by Strings of Fate with the Advanced Conjunction dialed up implausibly high - not because he cared, but because Destiny itself had essentially made it his job to enforce the dictates of Fate manufactured by the whims of Acanthus.)

And you more or less just backed into it independently, which is both awesome and hilarious. Here's how it looked when I dialed back Advanced Conjunction so that my players would stop begging me to have a little pity for that poor cop:

Conjunction

Many Fate spells – and certain spells of other Arcana – indicate that the event the spell brings about happens within 24 hours (Conjunction). This is the maximum amount of time that will pass before the event the spell put into motion takes place - with the exact timing determined by the Storyteller. Conjunction is treated as a separate spell factor for those spells that have it, with increases in the Conjunction factor reducing the maximum interval. By adding +1 Reach, the mage can move Conjunction to Advanced Conjunction. Spells with a Conjunction count any Duration from the time the conjunction takes place, not from the time the mage casts the spell. However, they count toward Spell Control immediately.

Factor	Conjunction	Advanced Conjunction
1 (basic success)	24 hours	One hour
2	12 hours	30 minutes
3	Eight hours	15 minutes
4	Six hours	10 minutes
5	Four hours	Five minutes
6	Three hours	Three minutes

I also found it useful for adjudicating things like a weather control spell where you want a bigger effect than you can safely manage, but you're not too particular about exactly when the thunderstorm (or whatever) hits. A one-hour maximum delay might reduce the dice penalty imposed by spell factors by two, for example, while a 24-hour delay would reduce the spell's Reach by one.

In the same vein, you could probably experiment with something similar for hostile transformations with Life or Mind. You don't just turn your victim into a frog; you set the amphibian transformation into motion, and his body slowly takes on the new shape over the course of an hour or day or week or month - although that shouldn't be allowed to dodge Duration, since some of the "benefits" of the spell come into play long before you reach the limits of the Conjunction.

There's plenty of textual support for this sort of thing in the game's inspirational media, so I'm happy to see someone else playing with this idea, too.

[MovingMind]

Hmmm, i like your chart better than mine, but i think the extra factor is going to far. Mind you i like options and complexity, but i'm probably the only one in my group...
What about making it a lesser utility attainment for the Fate Arcanum.

Fate: Machinations of Fate <provisional name>
The mage can break down the imago of his spell such that rather than taking effect instantaneously, the effect gradually unfolds over a period of time.
To use this attainment, spend 1 mana and choose a length of time.
This is the maximum amount of time that will pass before the event the spell put into motion takes place - with the exact timing determined by the Storyteller.
Spells with a Conjunction count any Duration from the time the conjunction takes place, not from the time the mage casts the spell. However, they count toward Spell Control immediately.
1 hour - +1 step on any spell factor.
1 day - +1 reach

This way it's not such a big change.

Any ideas about the name?

[Eric Zawadzki]

An Attainment works, as well. I just woke up, so naming things is gonna be hard for me just now. I find that either the name is obvious to me immediately or I end up having to agonize over it. Machinations of Fate is fine. Something that evokes words of prophecy could work, too. But having something that does what you want is usually a higher priority in house rules than giving it a cool name.

[MovingMind]

Rather than making a new thread, i decided to bump this one up, since it's tangentially on topic... because i made a thing

Atonement, Rewritten
So, without further ado:

Atonement (Fate •)
Practice: Unveiling
Primary Factor: Potency
Withstand: Special
Suggested Rote Skills: Academics, Empathy, Survival
The subject of the spell learns a mystical way around a problem that ails them.
Upon casting the spell, the caster chooses an attribute and a skill; this forms the basis of the quest. The quest takes the form of an extended action based on the Attribute and the Skill.
The subject makes the first roll immediately, and may roll for the extended action the caster's gnosis interval.
The spell can affect non persistent conditions of mundane origin, which require 3 successes to be achieved on the Extended roll.
Upon achieving the required amount of successes, the condition is suppressed for the duration of the spell.

Interval: Rounds > Minutes > 10 minutes > Hour > Days > Weeks > Months > Years

Add death •, spirit • or mind •: The spell can affect Numina and Influences used by Ghosts/Spirits/Goetia, Withstand: Rank; RS: Rank
Add any Arcanum •: The spell can affect Spell effects created by the Arcanum included in the casting. Withstand: Potency. RS: Spell level.
Substitute Fate ••••: Spell becomes Unraveling, and can target any effect afflicting the target. Withstand: potency, RS: Spell level

+1 Reach: The effect can target persistent mundane conditions. Interval +1, RS: 5
+1 Reach: The effect can target non-persistent conditions of supernatural origin and awakened magic. Interval: +1, RS: Level/Rank, Withstand: Level/Rank
+2 Reach: As above, but the effect can target persistent conditions of supernatural origin and awakened magic. Interval: +1, RS: Level/Rank, Withstand: Level/Rank
+1 Reach: The quest can be undertaken on the subject’s behalf by another person who wishes to champion her. If the subject is unwilling, this spell is Withstood with Resolve.
+2 Reach: The condition is not suppressed, but ended; the effect becomes lasting. Interval: +1.
+1 Reach: When calculating the interval of the extended action, use an shorter interval. This reach option may be taken multiple times.
*Interval = modification to extended action interval
**RS = Required successes

This brings it in line with Prime dispellation/supernal dispellation; with extra utility in that it can also affect mundane conditions, but requires "work".

Using Fate •••• makes the spell a slightly better version of what in the book (More options), but not lasting (In line with Supernal dispellation).

You could also recreate the Fate •••• effect by buying the reach options for Persistent mundane +1, and the +2 option for supernatural effects. However, it has the drawback of changing the amount of Successes/Interval; which the Fate •••• does not do. Having the Arcana knowledge does have quite an advantage.

There's still a bit of improvisation when it comes to the rules, and could do with some fine-tuning, but i am pleased with it... thoughts?

[Arcanist]

snipped because the quote formatting was... odd

So was Conjunction a separate spell factor like Potency, Duration, and Scale, or was it written to have more in common with Sympathy, Temporal or otherwise? (IE. An Arcanum related mechanic that can be related to other Arcana) Also, I'm not quite sure how this would impact most spells. Would it be like Scale in that you have the option to choose which version of the table you use? So a spell could have its effects occur immediately or follow the Conjunction table? How would this impact Boons and/or Hexes which impose dice pool modifiers for an activity that would normally fall under the period of time of Conjunction? Or would it mean that the Duration doesn't start ticking down until Conjunction occurs?

[Mrmdubois]

i think that Atonement spell is getting ahead of itself. First, it’s not actually Unveiling anything, it’s creating an avenue of escape from something else. That’s why Atonement is a Patterning effect, it’s altering existing problems to have an escape clause.

Second, your version is just a bunch of rolls as an extended action. The original Atonement is obviously meant to be a story in its own right.

I think there is room for a Knowing spell to tell you how the way to meet the conditions of things that have some kind of conditional duration though. In that case you’re just learning the specifics about something that’s already there.