Prelacy Temples and Non Prelacy Temples

[Nicolas Milioni]

Hello ye Awakened. I was reading my copy of the 2e corebook and i remembered something cool on page 103. A seer of the throne,with 4 dots in the prelace merit they can their create Temples,supernal verges keyed to the exarch the mage who created the verge serves and populated by supernal entities loyal to that exarch,keep in mind that all mages can create demesnes, which are weak supernal verges, but a true supernal verge only seems to occur two ways 1) Naturally, 2) When a seer creates a Temple.
My question for those who know more about the cosmology,is it possible from a non seer to create a supernal verge as well? Perhaps one keyed to a supernal god who is not an Exarch? or just a supernal verge that isn't keyed to any god?

[KaiserAfini]

Normally no, but maybe an Atlantean ruin could provide a solution. I imagine a new Legacy could be created to attempt to engineer an approximation using soul stones, some ley line and/or spirit/death/astral preparation of the area could be required, along with a powerful being to act as a core. I imagine something similar to the island Demonreach from Dresden Files, with Alfred managing the area and Harry being the Warden.

But a pure Verge, a potent overlap of Supernal and Fallen is too tall an order for a normal mage to pull off.

[Nicolas Milioni]

Normally no, but maybe an Atlantean ruin could provide a solution. I imagine a new Legacy could be created to attempt to engineer an approximation using soul stones, some ley line and/or spirit/death/astral preparation of the area could be required, along with a powerful being to act as a core. I imagine something similar to the island Demonreach from Dresden Files, with Alfred managing the area and Harry being the Warden.

But a pure Verge, a potent overlap of Supernal and Fallen is too tall an order for a normal mage to pull off.

A legacy like that would be really powerful. It also occurs to me an Ascended mage could maybe do the same thing as the Exarchs send ochema to demesnes created by mages of the same path and order as the ascended.

[KaiserAfini]

In theory yes, but it would violate the Pax Arcana. So unless they had a very good justification or way to hide it, it would be considered overkill compared to sending a prophetic dream, for example.

That being said, Legacies can make targeted summonings that are far safer, easier to setup and more Abyss resistant. The Illuminated Path, Stygian Heralds, Concord of Serpents and Katsinam Suukya in the 2ed Legacy conversion thread provide good examples of how to do it mechanically.

So if you mixed that targeted summoning with the thaumic engineering ideas into a Legacy, you could transform an area in a unique way.

[Mrmdubois]

I’d say a Mage could make a Verge, but they’d still need to be a Prelate to -something.- Doesn’t have to be an Exarch, but rare is the being powerful enough to pull it off.

[Tessie]

If we take a step back and look to what we know: The two types of Verges that we know can be created (Demesnes and Temples) both use something to bridge the Supernal. Demesnes use a mage's connection to a Watchtower while Temples uses a Prelate's connection to an Exarch.
I think a mage working together with a major enough Supernal entity could probably create a Supernal Verge. The question is how major that entity needs to be. General Supernal Summoning stops at Rank 5, but the major Exarchs are probably up at Rank 8-9 (extrapolated from the Rank/Arcanum relationship and what I remember from 1e Archmastery rules) meaning there's a huge gap between normally available Supernal entities and the Supernal entities confirmed to be able to create Supernal Verges.
Even if you do want to keep it out of Rank 5 entities to make it much mire difficult and exclusive, you still have multiple possibilities in the Aeons, some of the most powerful Bound, Artefacts that are connected to a high Ranking Supernal entity or some rare and carefully guarded way to contact a Supernal entity through regular Supernal Summoning.

If we instead base it on the principles of soulstones, we might be able to create "minor" Verges with much less. Even minor Supernal entities should definitely have a connection to the Supernal. If it's somehow possible to contain them so that they don't automatically get drained into the Abyss while also not losing too much of their connection with the Supernal, then they might be used in a manner similar to soulstones to create something akin to a Demesne. It might be possible using Prime 4 combined with both of the entity's Arcana at 4, but I would rather have it be more involved. I would rather have it be some kind of Prime Legacy (Death secondary?) that would definitely be branded Left-Handed the moment the Pentacle hears about it.
I think a "minor" Verge like that would effectively be somewhere between a Demesne and a proper Verge. Instead of a Watchtower it's connected through a relatively narrow concept, possibly only allowing spontaneous manifestations relating to that concept. It's also not a Demesne for Astral Journey purposes, obviously.

[Mrmdubois]

Aeons are not Bound.

[Tessie]

Aeons are not Bound.

They're two different examples.