Prelacy

[Mahjemm01]

So as a ST, I have to say that I find the Merit: Prelacy underwhelming. Mind you, have limited the Players to making Pentacle Mages. I feel the Seers are better used as antagonists. I find the 1e Prelacy Crown, Sword and Temple better suited for villains. Does anyone else think this or do you prefer the 2e Merit? And if you do prefer the 2e, why?

[Stupid Loserman]

The 1e Prelacy rules present four Prelacies as twelve Merit cascades totalling about five pages of rules text. The 2e Prelacy rules present four Prelacies as one Merit cascade totalling about half a page. It's pretty unavoidable that you can do more in five pages than you can do in half a page, and yet I'm pretty impressed at how the 2e Prelacy Merit covers the conceptual ground of those five pages pretty neatly and compactly.

The Temple Prelacies are definitely presented with more flavor and definition in the 1e rules. 2e's generalized Exarchate Verge model contains the potential for that conceptual space, but the potential isn't realized within the 2e corebook.

[Scarlet Witch]

On the other hand a Paternoster being able to heal resistant damage they contained from paradoxes and their massive mana pool means they're in prime (pun intended) position to bring their maximum power to any fuckwit who challenges her. The devil is in the details. Easy cheap convenient access to yantras and the most well-defended demesne this side of Archmastery is *pretty dang good!*

[branford]

Doesn't SIgns of Sorcery also have the Chancellor Prelate bonuses?

[nofather]

Yes. Chancellor, Raptor, and Prophet Crown Attainments.

[FallenEco]

8/10 in Onyx Path published works. (Nemesis appears in DE2 in the piracy chapter...as one of the four major ministries of the Seers)
The Psychopomp and The Ruin are needed to complete the set.
The Gate...is a separate matter.

[Tessie]

Iirc the Raptor should preferably have an alternate version because the main benefits build off of optional rules, meaning it'd be heavily underpowered by those not using those rules.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Even if you don't use Beaten Down, Raptor's Prelacy makes prelates immune to wound penalties.

[Tessie]

That and the extra Doors aren't bad to have, but I think those two combined pale compare to the main benefit of all the other Crown Attainments. Maybe the four in the core book are a bit boosted due to them being boons from Archigenitors, but Crown of Scarcity looks so much better (to the point where it spawned one of the two character concepts I have for my group's future left-handed game). Crown of Agency is too situational for my taste, but it compensates to some degree by being extremely flavourful by interacting with the mage's magic.
Huh. Going through those in the core book and in SoS, I find that all Crown Attainments except Instinct does in some way interact with the mage's magic or with Mana. Some a lot more than others, but Crown of Instinct is alone (unless Nemesis also does it; haven't read that one yet) in granting purely mundane benefits. I think that might sour my perception of it as well.

[maryshelly]

So as a ST, I have to say that I find the Merit: Prelacy underwhelming.

Really? Prelacy 4 basically means that your place basically becomes a worldly extension of one of the palaces of Exarchs, filled with supernal beings loyal to the Exarchs. I kinda got the impression that was very powerful.

[KaiserAfini]

Really? Prelacy 4 basically means that your place basically becomes a worldly extension of one of the palaces of Exarchs, filled with supernal beings loyal to the Exarchs. I kinda got the impression that was very powerful.

It is. It probably also means they are easier to negotiate and get guidance from. They are still subordinates of a cosmic tyrant who probably see the mage as middle management at best, but an effective prelate can work with that.

They also gain an easy +2 yantra at Prelacy 4, which is quite powerful. Imagine if you have a powerful Shadow Name attuned to them, you get 3 (full Shadow Name) + 2 (Prelacy yantra) + 2 (High Speech) = +7 to relevant spells at their convenience, that is no small bonus.

In addition, each Prelacy Attainment is really powerful. Unity makes social battles a lot easier, Fury is a hard counter to combat specialists, Secrecy is like a better Occultation, Duty gives you a lot more mana to work with and is one of the few things that let you heal resistant damage (such as from containing Paradox).

There is a very good reason they come with the Mystery Commands strings attached, Prelacies are really powerful.

[Mahjemm01]

I thought that the largest bonus a roll could acquire was +5. Which if that is the case, then a +2 Yantra isn't really that good if you already have the +3 from Shadow Name and +2 from High Speech. Have I missed something in the CB or am I misunderstanding what is in the CB?

[KaiserAfini]

All yantras put together can only add +5 to a spell. But the key is that the limit is only applied after taking into account any penalties. So lets say you went out of your way and used 4 rare sacrificial yantras of +3 to a spell (or used a Perfecting of Prime to make each one add more). That means that, unless you commit some to spell factors, the end value will be truncated to +5 and you will lose those extra 7 dice. That is one reason why Fate is so useful, it can add another 5 dice on top of those with a blessing (at least before you need to invest mana), since its not limited by that rule.

Shadow Name is based on the character you embody or created. That means it can only grant the bonus to spells based on your in-depth knowledge of them or, in case of a created one, how much you consistently fleshed out their symbolism. Ahura Mazda is an extremely flexible one, but can you consistently point out which of his 101 names best fits the spell ? Either way, it will not benefit you in anything associated with an act of hubris, since that is the domain of his opposite, Angra Mainyu. Their portfolio can restrict you. In addition, you either need to buy the merit or commit a spell to create a temporary one.

High Speech takes a turn to use, so its not the best in combat. Its also not discrete around Sleepers unless you use Hidden High Speech and a Willpower per cast.

Runes give a +2, but barring a use of a Perfecting of Prime or Time, they take ritual time to use and introduce a weak link for dispellation purposes.

So each of those has a drawback, but can be a powerful addition to your spellcasting tools. Just like a pentacle brooch with a perfected metal decorations representing each Supernal Realm or carrying items strongly associated with the planetary courts after being mentored in their symbolism by a Thrice Great. It all depends on what is practical, inconspicuous to carry and useful for the current constraints for spellcasting. A Prelacy grants one more instant use yantra for a relatively easy +2.

[Mahjemm01]

Yea.....you lost me......especially with Shadow Name. So I guess I did miss something in the CB......🤔🤨. But that's ok. I think I prolly won't use Prelacies, just like I don't use it allow Legacies in the game.

[KaiserAfini]

Lets say your Shadow Name is Odin, that means only spells that you can symbolically associate with Odin's myth or domain would get a bonus.

Odin is a patron of shamans and necromancers, so some Death and Spirit magic would get the bonus. Spears, sure aim and oaths are associated with Gungnir. Wolves, eagles and horses are all part of his mystical entourage too, so casting on those animals also gets the bonus. His throne allowed him to see anywhere in the Nine Realms, so scrying gets a bonus too. He was a knowledge seeker, so divinations might as well.

But he was not a god of blacksmiths or machines, so your creation of perfected metals or gadgets gets no bonus unless you can find a suitable correspondence/symbolism that is incorporated into the spell. He was not the god of the tides, thunder or the seasons, so those Forces spells will probably not get a bonus. He was not a god of agriculture or trade, so those won't normally get a bonus either.

But if you made your Golem look like Sleipneir, then you could get a bonus. The key is identifying the Shadow Name's symbolism to make the most of every opportunity or thinking how to alter the spell to take advantage of said symbolism.