2 Fluff based mage questions: Can "Anyone" Awaken? and What is an Imago in narrative?

[LadyLens]

As I see it, Awakened magic has a very large intuitive and experiential component to it. Mages, immediately after Awakening, understand to at least some degree what an imago is and how to create one; if they didn't they couldn't work magic until receiving formal training, and since Banishers never receive such training, it is clearly not essential. They don't necessarily understand the details of Reach, but they soon learn that pushing their limits feels "off" or "wrong" in some way, since Paradox is the result of the Abyss tainting the spell, and it's not hard to realize that sometimes that feeling precedes something strange happening. Honestly, most aspects of spell casting can be learned of with some experimentation and practice, especially since the mechanics of Paradox make it difficult for mages to severely damage themselves with Paradox unless they really work at it or their luck's really out that day.

Concerning the various Astral realms, that's considerably more difficult to discover by simple experimentation. Other than lucid dreaming, astral travel has decidedly inobvious prerequisites. It's clearly possible, but it's fairly difficult. Personally, I'd be inclined to treat the initial discovery as a Mystery of Opacity 2 or 3.

[Isator Levi]

Perhaps this is just a problem with me but does a mage understand what reach is when they start? Do they know how magic works? Is paradox a thing that has to be learned?

I think again the specifics are not known until they're sufficiently experienced or taught about, but if Gnosis is an intuitive understanding of how things fit together and there's an initial understanding of Arcanum from the Awakening itself, I presume a mage can figure out the extent of what they can do but can feel a pressure at the edges of it.

I'd think of it like running. You can know basically how to run and what fatigue feels like even if you don't know how actual musculature works, moving your legs is just an innate process that doesn't require too much conscious thought. But it can help to manage training and exert yourself efficiently when you know those things a bit better.

How well does the mage know about the mechanics of an imago?

Based on descriptions in Dark Ages where Hellenistic mages are just starting to develop a rudimentary concept of the imago, I'm going to guess that it's not a naturally conceptualised thing even when one casts actual spells.

I presume that a mage who has been instructed in the theoretical framework or developed some form of their own has some greater efficiency with the casting of a spell, a bit more fine tuning for assignment of factors or how far they Reach or precision in the targeting, but not in a manner that has resolution in the mechanics. I think it could also be played as useful for speculating on how another spell is working, and forming some of the basis of how Arcane Experience from encountering Mysteries is translating into greater Supernal knowledge.

Are they just going to be blasting spells with as much reach as they can until they learn about paradox?

It seems to me that such a thing depends on individual personality and the details of Awakening. I think it's consistent enough that the nature of the world would predispose most new mages to testing their new capabilities cautiously. Perhaps an idea that, in Gnosis, they recognise that they really are now capable of magic, but don't quite fully believe it at the start and don't want to push too far too quickly while convincing themselves.

{Disclaimer, I have not yet read any Second Edition books, although I'm working my way up to it}

[Neos01]

Perhaps this is just a problem with me but does a mage understand what reach is when they start? Do they know how magic works? Is paradox a thing that has to be learned? How well does the mage know about the mechanics of an imago? I know these are going to be subconscious things. However, it's hard to parse how a newly created mage should work. Are they just going to be blasting spells with as much reach as they can until they learn about paradox? From a game perspective, I understand how these spells work. I just don't understand how they translate to the game with new mages.

Mages learn High speech during their awakening.
The symbol of this language are the building blocks of all magic, so i think that at this point a mage is like a child who had just learned the alphabet.
He can potentially write anything, but he is still limited by his unfamiliarity with grammar.
Considering that until a mage start casting spell he probably has never met anything paradox related, and that from Supernal realms no info on it can be gained because it contains only symbols of truth, a new mage would probably know nothing about paradox.
Probably he would start experimenting on spells factors and reaches from the first spell.
The Pneuma protects him from paradox, so he would initially observe only quiescence and dissonance effects if any.
After the pneuma expires he probably understands all of the basic spelp imago mechanics, and when he causes the first paradox he would probably start gathering info with mage sight.
Aftet that, he would already understand that he can release or contain, and have a rough idea of what causes a paradox

[Epimetheus]

I think that description given for Gnosis can cover mages knowing the basic extent of their capabilities, even if they lack a theoretical framework.

I think the actual structure of the Astral Realms needs to be taught or discovered, but if meditating one's way in at the right places is an innate property of mages then I think they can get an impulse to try when the conditions are correct.

Perhaps this is just a problem with me but does a mage understand what reach is when they start? Do they know how magic works? Is paradox a thing that has to be learned? How well does the mage know about the mechanics of an imago? I know these are going to be subconscious things. However, it's hard to parse how a newly created mage should work. Are they just going to be blasting spells with as much reach as they can until they learn about paradox? From a game perspective, I understand how these spells work. I just don't understand how they translate to the game with new mages.

[Isator Levi]

Can I ask a follow up question? How much does a mage actually know when they awaken? I imagine they understand how to magic innately but do they also get knowledge of an oneiros and other such phenomenon?

I think that description given for Gnosis can cover mages knowing the basic extent of their capabilities, even if they lack a theoretical framework.

I think the actual structure of the Astral Realms needs to be taught or discovered, but if meditating one's way in at the right places is an innate property of mages then I think they can get an impulse to try when the conditions are correct.

[Tessie]

This is more referring to Signs of Sorcery. There are rules for newly awakened PCs but there's kind of a lack of context on how a mage actually works in the first days of their awakening. Yes, they get super charged casting but what exactly does a mage know what they can do and can't do.

"Arcanum" means secret (the noun, not the verb) so it does bring some sort of knowledge. I would assume that the knowledge is purely about how the Arcana works (rather than anything about the world at large), meaning they have some intuitive knowledge of what the Practices can do of the Arcana they have access to, and some understanding of what they can affect based on what they know about the subject. Basically, they fully understand the theory of everything they're capable of, but that's not the same as practical knowledge.
For example, a freshly awakened Mastigos somehow knows they can gain information about minds and mental states as well as influence them to a point, but they don't know every single spell effect they could conjure forth. The basics are easy enough; the Mastigos can put two and two together and realise that applying a bit of Knowing on a person's mind leads to knowledge about them, and thus reinvent Know Nature, and when they wish to recall something they can easily just figure out how to cast Perfect Recall.
On the other hand, if they meet a Goetic entity before they know what Goetia are, they wouldn't know that Mind would be applicable for more than the entity's mental state. But when they finally figure out "hey, you come from the mind of a person" (or just activate Mage Sight) it'd just be a matter of time before they also realise they can get a whole other subset of information of this particular type of entity by casting a Mind equivalent of Know Spirit, and get to know stuff like their "power level" (Rank), abilities (Influences and Numina) and weaknesses (Bane and Ban).

At least, that's how I'd run it. Basically, when relevant in the game, the players gets to use their meta knowledge about the Arcana because that coincides nicely with what the character should be aware of regarding their own powers. (But it's not a free pass to cast Mind spells on an entity because the player happened to recognise the Goetic entity before the character found out. That's meta knowledge about the setting rather than the spellcasting rules.)

[Neos01]

This is more referring to Signs of Sorcery. There are rules for newly awakened PCs but there's kind of a lack of context on how a mage actually works in the first days of their awakening. Yes, they get super charged casting but what exactly does a mage know what they can do and can't do.

I suppose newly mages knows how to use basic template abilities, mage sight, mana uses ecc.
They would probably start experimenting on the three arcana dots they have, and by casting those spells they would start to understand paradox and develope Praxis and Attainment.
In the first days they would probably analyze a lot of things with mage sight.
Lucid dreaming would probably be reached instinctively some days after.
After the pneuma expires, they would start to use mage sight to discover ways to recover mana.
Mages feels the connection to the watchtower, and could try to reach it again, in a suitable place they could discover Astral projection.
All other things i think can be gained after years of experimenting or from a mentor.

[Epimetheus]

I think that the free occult dot granted by Orders membership covers those subjects

This is more referring to Signs of Sorcery. There are rules for newly awakened PCs but there's kind of a lack of context on how a mage actually works in the first days of their awakening. Yes, they get super charged casting but what exactly does a mage know what they can do and can't do.

[Neos01]

Can I ask a follow up question? How much does a mage actually know when they awaken? I imagine they understand how to magic innately but do they also get knowledge of an oneiros and other such phenomenon?

I think that the free occult dot granted by Orders membership covers those subjects

[Epimetheus]

There's a multi-stage filter going on

There's people who have the right mindset to be a mage, a tiny proportion of whom confront the Lie. A tiny proportion of those get selected by a Watchtower, and a tiny proportion of *those* Awaken.

The means by which the Watchtowers pick which human beings having a crisis of Integrity to form the Adyton in is what mages don't understand. It's clearly not "will pass the tests" because most people don't. It might be "*could* pass the tests without breaking", which is why when Archmasters force the Watchtower to admit someone it doesn't want to they usually break.

It might be that the person has something about them that calls to the Watchtower's Path; mages continually debate whether the stereotypes of the Paths are nature (only Acanthus-y people get picked by Lunargent Thorn) or nurture (having the powers that being an Acanthus gives you makes people Acanthus-y). And suspect the answer's "both".

It doesn't appear to be influenced by numbers - the Watchtowers don't have a quota and don't seem to need to "recharge" between Awakenings, as the number of Awakenings per year since the Diamond starting trying to record it is actually increasing, and the specific weirdness that results when a Watchtower Awakens two people simultaneously was theoretical until the last century or so and has been happening more and more. But even then, the Awakening rate has not increased as exponentially as the human population, so while there's more *mages* than there were in the middle ages, there's a fuckton more Sleepers, and the Sleeper:Mage ratio has gone *down* while the Awakened population has gone *up*.

As Signs says, ultimately Awakenings rely on the action of a Supernal Realm/Entity that mages only really understand by their actions. Even Archmasters who can actually travel to the Watchtowers and examine them perceive them as being part of a larger entity that remains mysterious. Whatever criteria they use are impossible to ascertain. The Awakened community have been unable to determine a pattern beyond "should be sufficiently obsessed and in a crisis with the Lie" despite thousands of years of trying.

Can I ask a follow up question? How much does a mage actually know when they awaken? I imagine they understand how to magic innately but do they also get knowledge of an oneiros and other such phenomenon?

[Brassfist]

There's a multi-stage filter going on

There's people who have the right mindset to be a mage, a tiny proportion of whom confront the Lie. A tiny proportion of those get selected by a Watchtower, and a tiny proportion of *those* Awaken.

The means by which the Watchtowers pick which human beings having a crisis of Integrity to form the Adyton in is what mages don't understand. It's clearly not "will pass the tests" because most people don't. It might be "*could* pass the tests without breaking", which is why when Archmasters force the Watchtower to admit someone it doesn't want to they usually break.

It might be that the person has something about them that calls to the Watchtower's Path; mages continually debate whether the stereotypes of the Paths are nature (only Acanthus-y people get picked by Lunargent Thorn) or nurture (having the powers that being an Acanthus gives you makes people Acanthus-y). And suspect the answer's "both".

It doesn't appear to be influenced by numbers - the Watchtowers don't have a quota and don't seem to need to "recharge" between Awakenings, as the number of Awakenings per year since the Diamond starting trying to record it is actually increasing, and the specific weirdness that results when a Watchtower Awakens two people simultaneously was theoretical until the last century or so and has been happening more and more. But even then, the Awakening rate has not increased as exponentially as the human population, so while there's more *mages* than there were in the middle ages, there's a fuckton more Sleepers, and the Sleeper:Mage ratio has gone *down* while the Awakened population has gone *up*.

As Signs says, ultimately Awakenings rely on the action of a Supernal Realm/Entity that mages only really understand by their actions. Even Archmasters who can actually travel to the Watchtowers and examine them perceive them as being part of a larger entity that remains mysterious. Whatever criteria they use are impossible to ascertain. The Awakened community have been unable to determine a pattern beyond "should be sufficiently obsessed and in a crisis with the Lie" despite thousands of years of trying.

Thank you Dave! I really appreciate your response on this!

[LadyLens]

So this makes sense to me, and when you say "reaches to the Supernal and imposes the relevant symbols upon the world" this is different for every mage in how they interpret it because all mages have slightly different interpretations of the supernal according to signs of sorcery, so all mages would pull on the same symbols but they would interpret/visualize them differently right?

That is my understanding, yes.

[Dave Brookshaw]

There's a multi-stage filter going on

There's people who have the right mindset to be a mage, a tiny proportion of whom confront the Lie. A tiny proportion of those get selected by a Watchtower, and a tiny proportion of *those* Awaken.

The means by which the Watchtowers pick which human beings having a crisis of Integrity to form the Adyton in is what mages don't understand. It's clearly not "will pass the tests" because most people don't. It might be "*could* pass the tests without breaking", which is why when Archmasters force the Watchtower to admit someone it doesn't want to they usually break.

It might be that the person has something about them that calls to the Watchtower's Path; mages continually debate whether the stereotypes of the Paths are nature (only Acanthus-y people get picked by Lunargent Thorn) or nurture (having the powers that being an Acanthus gives you makes people Acanthus-y). And suspect the answer's "both".

It doesn't appear to be influenced by numbers - the Watchtowers don't have a quota and don't seem to need to "recharge" between Awakenings, as the number of Awakenings per year since the Diamond starting trying to record it is actually increasing, and the specific weirdness that results when a Watchtower Awakens two people simultaneously was theoretical until the last century or so and has been happening more and more. But even then, the Awakening rate has not increased as exponentially as the human population, so while there's more *mages* than there were in the middle ages, there's a fuckton more Sleepers, and the Sleeper:Mage ratio has gone *down* while the Awakened population has gone *up*.

As Signs says, ultimately Awakenings rely on the action of a Supernal Realm/Entity that mages only really understand by their actions. Even Archmasters who can actually travel to the Watchtowers and examine them perceive them as being part of a larger entity that remains mysterious. Whatever criteria they use are impossible to ascertain. The Awakened community have been unable to determine a pattern beyond "should be sufficiently obsessed and in a crisis with the Lie" despite thousands of years of trying.

[Brassfist]

The Watchtowers are deliberately a great setting mystery. The difficulty encountered by mages' long history of trying to trace and predict the patterns of Awakenings suggests that if the Watchtowers discriminate in their selections, it is not in any way from which a clear bias can be distinguished. It is suggested that in the Time Before, the lost history mages call Atlantis, anyone could awaken by their own power. In the existing history of the world, the prospective mage's will and wisdom is still necessary to achieve Awakening, but an additional impetus seems required to bridge the Abyss, in the form of the call of the Watchtowers.

I'd suggest that prospects can fail the Awakening for potentially the same reason that those forcibly Awakened by works of archmastery go mad. The Watchtowers call, but do not force, because the human soul breaks under the stress of an artificial Awakening without the spiritual preparation of a successful Adyton. The frequency of failed Awakenings could be read to suggest inhuman, alien directives behind the gaze of the Watchtowers. It could also be read to suggest that the Watchtowers are indeed lenient and welcoming, inviting prospects to attempt the Adyton without assumptions of who is more likely to surmount it.

So because there is not a good metric for how often failed awakenings occur or how often people in the Chronicles of Darkness actually confront the Lie. We have no real way of measuring the watchtower's leniency/frequency/interference with the un-awakened population as far as I am aware. I suppose this is up to storyteller discretion? Just like the number of awakened a storyteller includes in the setting?

[Brassfist]

I'll use a slightly different example. A mage wants to start a fire, and imagines the ambient thermal energy concentrating itself briefly at a single point. Then that mage reaches to the Supernal and imposes the relevant symbols upon the world, and the imago becomes a momentary reality. Gnosis mainly measures your "closeness" to the Supernal, your Arcana your familiarity with particular sets of symbols.

So this makes sense to me, and when you say " reaches to the Supernal and imposes the relevant symbols upon the world" this is different for every mage in how they interpret it because all mages have slightly different interpretations of the supernal according to signs of sorcery, so all mages would pull on the same symbols but they would interpret/visualize them differently right?