Since everyone is doing Legacies...

[Excess]

For a while now I have had some ideas for some Legacies. For a while now I have been in awe of the concepts. For a while now I wished for awesome mechanics to match awesome concepts. For a while now I realized I am too much of an amateur to make those mechanics and too lazy to ask for help.

Now I am asking for help. Three Legacies. We agree on which to do first. When I am satisfied or the community offers no further help we move on to the next Legacy.

1. Death priests (Obrimos)

Aron Ra once made the case that all religions have in their doctrine the idea that there is some essence of self (soul or what have you) that continues on in some other form. Whether or not he is right, it convinced me that the Underworld in this setting has sympathy with religions in general and that the Krewes of the sin-eaters are just the ones that tapped this link.

Yes, this is the crossover Legacy. The founder made the link and connected the religious aspects of his Path to the Underworld to form this Legacy (and overcome the inferior Arcanum limits). Treats all Krewes as parent "Order", because it is actually connected to the Krewe-binding ceremony. Treats Krewe ceremonies as an extension of the Death Arcanum with greatly simplified mechanics and superior casting. Works to groom the Krewe into the image of the supernal itself so Catabasis can reclaim a facet of reality in the name of whatever higher power you believe in.

2. Duelists (Path undecided)


The founder is a junky of the Duel Arcane. Thought to himself about making a Legacy based on the same, making Legacy Attainments just for winning Duels. Prime as the Primary Arcanum (haha) to aid his spell-casting in the Duel and Fate as the optional Arcanum to add extra rules and penalties to the Duel, such as immediately losing if you so much as indirectly cheat.

Then he (or she or they if you want) realized that some Consilia may consider this illegal. The plan? Use the Duel Arcane to win the right to create and use the Legacy. Going after all the office-holding mages and beat them in the Duel, then use their influence to set up the next match and getting the ball rolling. The quest can double as the indoctrination part of the Legacy, using the act of legalizing it to create it. If the contrarian Free Council disagrees? Beat their leaders, if they insist that this should be done by vote? Beat enough of their numbers to sway the votes. Replace the founder with your character and you have got a chronicle on your hands.

3. Unashamed (Mastigos)


As I contemplated the implications of Legacy Wisdom I realized that psychos can now have sqeaky clean Wisdom if you just commit your crimes through Legacy Attainments. Let's take this to its logical extreme. Imagine a Legacy whose entire symbolism and premise was to stretch Legacy Wisdom to all-encompassing extremes. Legacy Attainments can shed some limits if they resonate well with the Theory and by abandoning the Practices you can make strange Attainments that conforms closely with whatever the Theory is, or at least that is how I understand it.

This Legacy is the experiment of a Thearch who figured that by making Legacy Attainments that passively alter how the mind and soul respond to transgressions he can remove all Acts of Hubris from the mage through immunity. Problem? He didn't really believe shame has any value. He also dismissed the arguments of others that the supernatural races deserve better then servitude to humanity, or the questions of if humanity should rule so absolutely over a universe of other sentient beings, or if placing so much power in the hands of billions won't tear the universe apart again over petty disputes. That mindset devised a Legacy that makes one behave like the Rapt, so the Silver Ladder denounced him as Enraptured so as not to do any soul-searching.

[21C Hermit]

On my phone and incapable of much contribution, but...

Death Priests! Looks a lot like what I wanted to do for homebrew (five Legacies, each of one Path, for all major supernaturals — the idea was given first by Dataweaver, one of many homebrewers around here). I thought solely of Ceremonies, rather than Krewes and Catabasis, so that’s new.

Duelists. Are they named Flambeau, by chance?

The Unashamed? Hmm... by that alone, it just looks like Left-Handed mages who happen to rely on Attainments. We might want something more focused.

[TempleBuilder]

For a while now I have had some ideas for some Legacies. For a while now I have been in awe of the concepts. For a while now I wished for awesome mechanics to match awesome concepts. For a while now I realized I am too much of an amateur to make those mechanics and too lazy to ask for help.

Now I am asking for help. Three Legacies. We agree on which to do first. When I am satisfied or the community offers no further help we move on to the next Legacy.

1. Death priests (Obrimos)

Aron Ra once made the case that all religions have in their doctrine the idea that there is some essence of self (soul or what have you) that continues on in some other form. Whether or not he is right, it convinced me that the Underworld in this setting has sympathy with religions in general and that the Krewes of the sin-eaters are just the ones that tapped this link.

Yes, this is the crossover Legacy. The founder made the link and connected the religious aspects of his Path to the Underworld to form this Legacy (and overcome the inferior Arcanum limits). Treats all Krewes as parent "Order", because it is actually connected to the Krewe-binding ceremony. Treats Krewe ceremonies as an extension of the Death Arcanum with greatly simplified mechanics and superior casting. Works to groom the Krewe into the image of the supernal itself so Catabasis can reclaim a facet of reality in the name of whatever higher power you believe in.

Great idea! I would do Death/Prime for the legacy, and try and have it permanently change the resonance of the Underworld through religious devotion. Kinda like mage the ascension now that I think of it. I like this one the most out of the three. *I have never read Giest before, so standard rules when someone doesn’t know what they are talking about apply*

2. Duelists (Path undecided)


The founder is a junky of the Duel Arcane. Thought to himself about making a Legacy based on the same, making Legacy Attainments just for winning Duels. Prime as the Primary Arcanum (haha) to aid his spell-casting in the Duel and Fate as the optional Arcanum to add extra rules and penalties to the Duel, such as immediately losing if you so much as indirectly cheat.

Then he (or she or they if you want) realized that some Consilia may consider this illegal. The plan? Use the Duel Arcane to win the right to create and use the Legacy. Going after all the office-holding mages and beat them in the Duel, then use their influence to set up the next match and getting the ball rolling. The quest can double as the indoctrination part of the Legacy, using the act of legalizing it to create it. If the contrarian Free Council disagrees? Beat their leaders, if they insist that this should be done by vote? Beat enough of their numbers to sway the votes. Replace the founder with your character and you have got a chronicle on your hands.

I’m going to start with that I find the concept boring. But, by no means let that stop you. (I find the duel arcane boring in general.) The legacy definitely has a place in the silver ladder and AA. I would argue it’s even very legal, if annoying. Does one penalize the person with higher arcanum in normal duels? Because in the end it’s just more mystical power that really only brought to bear in a specialized set of circumstances.
On the legacy it’s self, prime/ fate set this up as a Orbimos aka the mighty, and I think your arcana spread is good. Mastigos might be interested, with their annoy everyone to make them better themselves thing. It ignores their arcanum, but resonates with their symbolism so your mileage may vary.

3. Unashamed (Mastigos)


As I contemplated the implications of Legacy Wisdom I realized that psychos can now have sqeaky clean Wisdom if you just commit your crimes through Legacy Attainments. Let's take this to its logical extreme. Imagine a Legacy whose entire symbolism and premise was to stretch Legacy Wisdom to all-encompassing extremes. Legacy Attainments can shed some limits if they resonate well with the Theory and by abandoning the Practices you can make strange Attainments that conforms closely with whatever the Theory is, or at least that is how I understand it.

This Legacy is the experiment of a Thearch who figured that by making Legacy Attainments that passively alter how the mind and soul respond to transgressions he can remove all Acts of Hubris from the mage through immunity. Problem? He didn't really believe shame has any value. He also dismissed the arguments of others that the supernatural races deserve better then servitude to humanity, or the questions of if humanity should rule so absolutely over a universe of other sentient beings, or if placing so much power in the hands of billions won't tear the universe apart again over petty disputes. That mindset devised a Legacy that makes one behave like the Rapt, so the Silver Ladder denounced him as Enraptured so as not to do any soul-searching.

Well I have opinions on this. This should flat out be a guardian and seer legacy. No if’s or buts. They would definitely steal it given the chance. While their masques can do the job, this is almost as easy to develop for a mage, and will cover a wider ground if every attainment removes several acts of hubris. (I’m not saying it should be guardians only or even guardians primary, but they WILL acquire it. So will seers, they will want this just as hard if not more so.)

On to the silver ladder, and I imagine they would be quite divided on the issue. On the one hand this is a MASSIVE middle finger to the limitations of the world. Some would probably cite it as great progress to breaking the soul cage. Others would argue that the legacy originator is now a equally massive threat to the Consilium. For bonus points, I would run the founder as a Harry Dresden type destructive savior, casually burning buildings through negligence and poor choices on a regular basis and casually saving hundreds if not thousands of lives on a equally regular basis. This creates a more interesting story in my opinion. Much like hunter, it’s now hard to tell when your companion has slipped over the slippery slope. Because, let’s be honest, every legacy has had its monsters. Because that’s what mages are, monsters with too much power and not enough self control, that happen to be people.

This should be a prime only legacy. You are switching the symbolism of a mage to a rapt without going all the way. A really nasty weaving effect in essence. This legacy probably is the result of archmastery, I think template modification is a thing you can do. I would have the legacy members be having their long term nimbus happening ALL the time, as a reference to Dresden and to show how little control they have. Everything should read them as at 1 wisdom, and they can neither raise nor lower it.

[proindrakenzol]

For a while now I have had some ideas for some Legacies. For a while now I have been in awe of the concepts. For a while now I wished for awesome mechanics to match awesome concepts. For a while now I realized I am too much of an amateur to make those mechanics and too lazy to ask for help.

Now I am asking for help. Three Legacies. We agree on which to do first. When I am satisfied or the community offers no further help we move on to the next Legacy.

1. Death priests (Obrimos)

Aron Ra once made the case that all religions have in their doctrine the idea that there is some essence of self (soul or what have you) that continues on in some other form. Whether or not he is right, it convinced me that the Underworld in this setting has sympathy with religions in general and that the Krewes of the sin-eaters are just the ones that tapped this link.

Yes, this is the crossover Legacy. The founder made the link and connected the religious aspects of his Path to the Underworld to form this Legacy (and overcome the inferior Arcanum limits). Treats all Krewes as parent "Order", because it is actually connected to the Krewe-binding ceremony. Treats Krewe ceremonies as an extension of the Death Arcanum with greatly simplified mechanics and superior casting. Works to groom the Krewe into the image of the supernal itself so Catabasis can reclaim a facet of reality in the name of whatever higher power you believe in.

I have a few ideas for this. The Prime Alternate Attainments I think I could lift straight from another religious-themed Obrimos Legacy I created (though I don't think I've posted it).

The Death Attainments sort of depend on how conciliatory to Ghosts you want to be, but I have ideas there, too: the first Attainment should be a Ghosts only Exorcist's Eye (advanced duration) (there's no real reason Death should need Spirit to see ghosts this way) Speak With the Dead (advanced duration); second could be Ghost Shield (advanced duration) or Touch of the Grave (advanced duration), I prefer the former because it's protective and touching ghosts is... eh; third is Ectoplasm (instant, advanced duration), this allows ghosts to Manifest and can feed Plasm to your Sin-Eater friends; fourth is Exorcism (instant) for those truly intransigent ghosts; fifth is Create Anchor (advanced duration) for ghosts you want to stick around for a while longer so you can help them.

2. Duelists (Path undecided)


The founder is a junky of the Duel Arcane. Thought to himself about making a Legacy based on the same, making Legacy Attainments just for winning Duels. Prime as the Primary Arcanum (haha) to aid his spell-casting in the Duel and Fate as the optional Arcanum to add extra rules and penalties to the Duel, such as immediately losing if you so much as indirectly cheat.

Then he (or she or they if you want) realized that some Consilia may consider this illegal. The plan? Use the Duel Arcane to win the right to create and use the Legacy. Going after all the office-holding mages and beat them in the Duel, then use their influence to set up the next match and getting the ball rolling. The quest can double as the indoctrination part of the Legacy, using the act of legalizing it to create it. If the contrarian Free Council disagrees? Beat their leaders, if they insist that this should be done by vote? Beat enough of their numbers to sway the votes. Replace the founder with your character and you have got a chronicle on your hands.

Honestly, with how... incredibly limited the Duel Arcane is, you're better off with a Style Merit than an entire arcane duelist Legacy.

3. Unashamed (Mastigos)

As I contemplated the implications of Legacy Wisdom I realized that psychos can now have sqeaky clean Wisdom if you just commit your crimes through Legacy Attainments. Let's take this to its logical extreme. Imagine a Legacy whose entire symbolism and premise was to stretch Legacy Wisdom to all-encompassing extremes. Legacy Attainments can shed some limits if they resonate well with the Theory and by abandoning the Practices you can make strange Attainments that conforms closely with whatever the Theory is, or at least that is how I understand it.

This Legacy is the experiment of a Thearch who figured that by making Legacy Attainments that passively alter how the mind and soul respond to transgressions he can remove all Acts of Hubris from the mage through immunity. Problem? He didn't really believe shame has any value. He also dismissed the arguments of others that the supernatural races deserve better then servitude to humanity, or the questions of if humanity should rule so absolutely over a universe of other sentient beings, or if placing so much power in the hands of billions won't tear the universe apart again over petty disputes. That mindset devised a Legacy that makes one behave like the Rapt, so the Silver Ladder denounced him as Enraptured so as not to do any soul-searching.

Just go Rapt if you want to be Rapt. Also, they'd declare the Legacy Left-Handed, denouncing someone as Rapt is silly since it's pretty easy to verify if someone is Rapt.

Practically, this is way too broad, it's far better to figure out what Acts of Hubris you want to be able to commit (for research, of course) and build a Legacy around that than trying to be this generic.

Legacies need to be both tightly focused and have useful Attainments for people to want to use them.

[21C Hermit]

For the Duelists, how about an Attainment that lets them declare the Duel on non-Awakened?

Quite potent and nasty, since very few beings would be able to counter that. Sleepers certainly can’t, and neither can most Sleepwalkers. Proximi, and certain entities such as spirits and ‘major templates’ like vampires and werewolves might be able to do something, albeit still at a massive disadvantage.

A related idea would be making this Duelist Legacy not limited to the Duel Arcane, and expanding its interests to the concept/symbol of The Duel itself. There’s something poetic and evocative about two individuals, unwilling to bend, invoking sacred violence as the final testament of their willpower.

[Excess]

To clarify: I have never made a Legacy before. That is why I wanted more help than suggestions and wanted to focus on one at a time. Since you guys did not choose I will pick for you.

Duelists.

As for your first imput, Hermit. Flambeau?

As for the input of both TempleBuilder and Proindrakenzol. You must have missed some key points so I will bring them to your attention. In the supplement: "Nameless and Accursed", it gives an off-hand mention that through the Duel might literally makes right. Whenever you win in such a Duel reality adjusts so that you are more correct than you were before, the symbol of your victory accepted into the heavens. It was obtuse in how much adjustment is done though.

Don't forget that the Duel is not that limited a part of mage society. It is in place because the tempers of reality warpers will not always yield to a court and the stakes of such can be disastrous. Both containing the collateral damage and venting rage, its role is not trivial. If you are not convinced then ask yourselves why the Lex Magica accepts it as binding and valid. Think about it. Imagine if a court dispute in real life accepted the result of a video game match instead, why would mages of a modern democratic world resort to trial by (simulated) combat?

This Legacy is not the same thing as having greater skill in general magic. If mages suspect that this produces an overwhelming advantage that almost no one can overcome, of course some would cry foul. The Duel Arcane has some internal rules that impose themselves on all who restrict themselves to its hypothetical space. No Yantras or overReaching. If you fail to further break your opponent with an attack then you cannot attack with that Arcanum again until your foe further breaks. Rules such as these and others not mentioned will be altered by the Attainments of this Legacy. Those without the Legacy will know that if they ever get into a dispute with a member then all the member has to do is be force the issue into a Duel instead of a court and win every time. Those without will of course want to question the legality of the Legacy to avoid this.

If that doesn't convince you, I don't know what to say. This is what the thread will focus on for a while.

To Hermit again, elaborate on your last paragraph. I am confused.

[TempleBuilder]

To clarify: I have never made a Legacy before. That is why I wanted more help than suggestions and wanted to focus on one at a time. Since you guys did not choose I will pick for you.

Duelists.

Cool. For reference, I have made only one legacy and have never played a game of mage. I’m not exactly comfortable telling you what to do. I’m not exactly clear on what help you wanted. Did you want symbolism help, or attainments or general idea discussion?

As for the input of both TempleBuilder and Proindrakenzol. You must have missed some key points so I will bring them to your attention. In the supplement: "Nameless and Accursed", it gives an off-hand mention that through the Duel might literally makes right. Whenever you win in such a Duel reality adjusts so that you are more correct than you were before, the symbol of your victory accepted into the heavens. It was obtuse in how much adjustment is done though.

Do you have a page number? If the duel makes might into right, then it draws off the Fathers symbolism. Or maybe a hybrid of the Father and the General.

( My reasoning for this is that the Father IS “don’t question authority” and might is merely another form of authority.)

Don't forget that the Duel is not that limited a part of mage society. It is in place because the tempers of reality warpers will not always yield to a court and the stakes of such can be disastrous. Both containing the collateral damage and venting rage, its role is not trivial. If you are not convinced then ask yourselves why the Lex Magica accepts it as binding and valid. Think about it. Imagine if a court dispute in real life accepted the result of a video game match instead, why would mages of a modern democratic world resort to trial by (simulated) combat?

Because it’s useful. Mage can settle disputes where neither is wrong in a nonviolent manner as you mentioned. It’s a historical way of settling arguments, and mages are all about ancient traditions. On a wide scale it prevents a majority of mage murder by other mage, (so they can die by their own hubris or mistakes). I never doubted that it was important, I just thought that it was boring. Clearly, you do not find it boring, so by all means go make this legacy. I will continue offering my advice and options, until they are unwanted or unneeded.

This Legacy is not the same thing as having greater skill in general magic. If mages suspect that this produces an overwhelming advantage that almost no one can overcome, of course some would cry foul. The Duel Arcane has some internal rules that impose themselves on all who restrict themselves to its hypothetical space. No Yantras or overReaching. If you fail to further break your opponent with an attack then you cannot attack with that Arcanum again until your foe further breaks. Rules such as these and others not mentioned will be altered by the Attainments of this Legacy. Those without the Legacy will know that if they ever get into a dispute with a member then all the member has to do is be force the issue into a Duel instead of a court and win every time. Those without will of course want to question the legality of the Legacy to avoid this.

The problem here is that, rules as written, the duels are heavily skewed towards the mage with more power and more doors. I don’t remember the exact odds, but the rules don’t really allow for evening the odds. I’m more than fine with a legacy punching above their metaphysical weight, but the rules for the duel are just lacking in a number of ways. There are no merits for the duel, to represent greater skill at the duel. There is only the same basic setup for everyone, two people on a flat plane fighting each other. The strategy to it is very simple, and there is not much depth. Any legacy about will radically alter the balance of power. In my opinion, if you want this legacy to work, the duel must be more complex, so there is room both for new interesting battles without the legacy and with it. I suggest fighting styles and merits for every duel focused order and one for every arcanum. That way there is some variety in fights.

If that doesn't convince you, I don't know what to say. This is what the thread will focus on for a while.

Well, it convinced me you want this legacy. I’m not sure it addressed my personal problems with the duel arcane, but I still will still offer advice and opinions. Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad. It just means we don’t agree. As long as the legacy becomes something that you like, then it fulfilled it’s purpose.

[proindrakenzol]

To clarify: I have never made a Legacy before. That is why I wanted more help than suggestions and wanted to focus on one at a time. Since you guys did not choose I will pick for you.

I straight up gave you an outline for the Death Priest Legacy.

As for the input of both TempleBuilder and Proindrakenzol. You must have missed some key points so I will bring them to your attention.

I didn't miss anything, I'm well aware of the flavor surrounding the Duel Arcane (though you're significantly overstating its reality warping properties, which are incredibly minor and limited to influencing opinion and iterpretation), but that doesn't make the mechanics of the Duel Arcane any broader, nor does it make its relative use any more interesting or solid for a Legacy: there isn't a lot of Mystery in the Duel Arcane, and being better at it doesn't really help with the vast majority of Mysteries. It's a political cudgel that only works as long as everyone else is willing to play along.

In the supplement: "Nameless and Accursed", it gives an off-hand mention that through the Duel might literally makes right. Whenever you win in such a Duel reality adjusts so that you are more correct than you were before, the symbol of your victory accepted into the heavens. It was obtuse in how much adjustment is done though.

No actual adjustment to reality is done, winning a Duel Arcane doesn't let you make the sky green. What it does do is allow you to stake out claims for Mysteries or Hallows or make sure your theory comes to the fore.

Don't forget that the Duel is not that limited a part of mage society. It is in place because the tempers of reality warpers will not always yield to a court and the stakes of such can be disastrous. Both containing the collateral damage and venting rage, its role is not trivial. If you are not convinced then ask yourselves why the Lex Magica accepts it as binding and valid. Think about it. Imagine if a court dispute in real life accepted the result of a video game match instead, why would mages of a modern democratic world resort to trial by (simulated) combat?

The answer to that is easy: other than the Free Council, Mages aren't particularly democratic. And the Duel Arcane is an option of second-to-last resort with a ton of political consequences.

This Legacy is not the same thing as having greater skill in general magic. If mages suspect that this produces an overwhelming advantage that almost no one can overcome, of course some would cry foul. The Duel Arcane has some internal rules that impose themselves on all who restrict themselves to its hypothetical space. No Yantras or overReaching. If you fail to further break your opponent with an attack then you cannot attack with that Arcanum again until your foe further breaks. Rules such as these and others not mentioned will be altered by the Attainments of this Legacy. Those without the Legacy will know that if they ever get into a dispute with a member then all the member has to do is be force the issue into a Duel instead of a court and win every time. Those without will of course want to question the legality of the Legacy to avoid this.

As long as you understand that the Duel Arcane is mechanically limited (meaning there's not a lot of design space that doesn't just break it) and that a reasonable Consilium will not consider the outcome of any Duel Arcane with someone with this Legacy to be valid, since it's fundamentally cheating.

[TempleBuilder]

and that a reasonable Consilium will not consider the outcome of any Duel Arcane with someone with this Legacy to be valid, since it's fundamentally cheating.

Is it though? If one has a higher arcanum rating or higher attributes, is that not just a form of metaphysical power? A legacy that buffs the legacy owner only can be considered to be similar metaphysical power. Technically every mage can accesses the legacy after gnosis two. Of course, the comparison to performance enhancing drugs is a valid argument...

I agree that in the duel arcane’s current form, any extra power would break it. But if we refine the duel, maybe something interesting would result. Maybe a legacy devoted to the duel would not be out of place in that context.

[21C Hermit]

As for your first imput, Hermit. Flambeau?

House Flambeau is a playable group belonging to the protagonist faction, the Order of Hermes, in the TRPG, Ars Magica. They are self-proclaimed knights and adventurers, known both in- and out-of universe for their affinity with fire magic, and a warlike tendency who often declare battles and wars against other mages both belonging to and outside the Order for sake of the Order as a whole.

I namedropped them because the Duel Arcane is, in some way, also a means of violence that seeks to contain the damage mages can do to each other and anybody nearby; seems to fit the Flambeau AFAIK. I mentioned them because Ars Magica heavily inspired Mage: The Ascension, which in turn is the spiritual predecessor of Mage: The Awakening. It helps we already have a group in MtAw whose motif and name goes way back to Ars Magica; the Tremere.

It was largely me trying to be funny, so don't think about it that much

To Hermit again, elaborate on your last paragraph. I am confused.

By my last paragraph, you meant this right?

A related idea would be making this Duelist Legacy not limited to the Duel Arcane, and expanding its interests to the concept/symbol of The Duel itself. There’s something poetic and evocative about two individuals, unwilling to bend, invoking sacred violence as the final testament of their willpower.


This is somewhat related to what others said about a Legacy solely focused on the Duel Arcane; it's hard to build one, and it's hard to narrate one. My proposal was about making a Legacy about duels in general, similarly to how, say, the Eleventh Question is about investigation, and the House of Ariadne is about urban divination. Something like...


Yantras: equipping personal weaponry such as rapiers or pistols (+2); a crowd in anticipation of the mage and her subject fighting (+1); declaring the subject of a spell as the mage's rival or nemesis (+2); revealing something about the mage herself that would make the subject antagonize her (+1, +2 if the antagonism escalates into intent of violence)

Oblations: 'dueling' someone, defined as contesting him one-to-one in otherwise mundane actions; openly gathering information about declared rivals and nemeses; abandoning more peaceful means of resolving a conflict in favor of battle; reflecting on past victories and defeats

First Attainment: Mind 1 spell "Mental Scan," with Reach assigned to instant use. Count as exceptional success when used on a rival or nemesis while dueling him.
Optional: When using the main effect, can also ask the question available via the Prime 1 spell "Supernal Vision."

Second Attainment: When using Mind Mage Armor, can spend a Willpower point instead of Mana to deflect attacks.
Optional: Prime Mage Armor extends to magically enhanced attacks, such as an enhanced sword. Still does not defend against natural attacks made by magical beings, such as werewolf claws.

Third Attainment: Access following bonuses for the Duel Arcane: add half of Mind dots, rounded up, to Doors; can use the Mind Arcanum a second time when failing to open a Door with it; when defeated; does not lose Willpower points when defeated; can instantly resolve the Defeated Condition by declaring the Duel Arcane on another mage
Optional: With appropriate ritual, Prime 3 spell "Display of Power" with Reach assigned to Advanced Scale. Affects Sleepers and Sleepwalkers as well. Sleepers automatically lose. Sleepwalkers can temporarily perceive the Supernal World, and rolls solely Attribute for attacks and defenses. Proximi can roll Attribute + highest dot rating of a Blessing. Non-Supernal supernatural creatures may roll Attribute + a suitable trait, at Storyteller discretion. When non-mages attack, failing to opening a Door disables the use of that Attribute, not the Arcanum-equivalent.


Something like that. That was just a quick suggestion, in no way checked for accuracy/balance/clarity, and definitely not intending to override your own ideas for the homebrew.

[Michael]

I namedropped them because the Duel Arcane is, in some way, also a means of violence that seeks to contain the damage mages can do to each other and anybody nearby; seems to fit the Flambeau AFAIK. I mentioned them because Ars Magica heavily inspired Mage: The Ascension, which in turn is the spiritual predecessor of Mage: The Awakening. It helps we already have a group in MtAw whose motif and name goes way back to Ars Magica; the Tremere.

I'm not sure if it was different in early versions but as of 5e it's actually the Tremere who developed the Duel Arcane analogue. Flambeau prefer just outright warfare.

That said, the Ars Tremere would be an interesting basis for a duellist legacy, though they're less duelling junkies and more about capitalising on a small area of expertise to take political power.

[21C Hermit]

I'm not sure if it was different in early versions but as of 5e it's actually the Tremere who developed the Duel Arcane analogue. Flambeau prefer just outright warfare.

That said, the Ars Tremere would be an interesting basis for a duellist legacy, though they're less duelling junkies and more about capitalising on a small area of expertise to take political power.

Yeah, that “more about capitalising...” thing was why I chose against referring to (re-referring to?) Tremere.

[Excess]

Will respond and contribute again once I had the night's sleep I missed and reviewed the rules.

[Excess]

I am back. Just want to get this out of the way immediately so I can concentrate on a longer post. One of you asked for a page number and another thought I was either mistaken or a lier.

In the supplement "Nameless and Accursed", page 14: there is a section called "Consilium and Caucus". The second paragraph contains the passing reference that winning the Duel Arcane does literally make the winner more right than the loser by way of altering the Supernal.

I don't think this property is because of the Exarchs though. I have my own theory.

[Excess]

Getting back to the Duelists:

I say we should focus on the basics. As in almost everything up to the first two Attainments. I say almost because I don't care much for how they dress or how they organize. If you want to fill those in I won't stop you nor will I join you.

Parentage: Acanthus, Adamantine Arrow. The Seers have been trying to get a hold of it and the Silver Ladder is still recovering from the beating they took during the founding of the Legacy. Chances are that both will gain access to the Legacy eventually.

Doctrine

Prerequisites: Prime 2, 1 dot in either Brawl, Weaponry, or Firearms, 1 dot in Intimidation. Your magic in the Duel will be stylized after your choice of offensive skills.

Initiation: the would-be Duelist must win the Duel Arcane, the stakes must include the right to join the Legacy. This so far is starting a tradition of potential students being made to fight for the right to join. They at least spend a week being prepped so that the initiation does not fail to take because they misunderstood the theory, symbolism, or fall short in any awkward way.

Theory: understanding rights as protected freedoms, might literally does make right because that is where rights come from. How else are they to be protected? The trappings of modern society distract us from the fact that force of law is how the government grants rights, so we delude ourselves in thinking we moved past this truth, as though we ever could. (Yes, the founder is fatalistic and cynical.) Mystical might makes factual right, given that mages can rewrite reality. If you value something like morality or ambition, speak truth to power and don't falter for cowardly excuses.

From a certain point of view, that may have been bleak. In the Chronicles of Darkness it doesn't seem out of place.

Magic

Primary Arcanum: Prime
Secondary Arcanum: Fate

Still not sure what the Yantras and Oblations should be. I think they should be modeled after a more warlike version of the Acanthus symbolism, following the legends of heroes and gods in divine combat, need inspiration. Norse? At least that is fatalistic. Greco-Roman? Suitably glorious.

After reading your review and answering follow-up questions, I will post my plan for how the Attainments should work.